"Mumsnet statement on moderation with regard to..."

I'd like to know details of the attack on a transwoman in Leic Square - because I've googled it and all that comes up is the group of 4 transwomen who attacked a man, and knocked him unconscious.

However, awful as it is, men beating up a transwoman is not an issue for a feminism board. Male on male violence is not for feminism to solve. Feminism centres women, and male violence against women.

As the OP, and all of this thread has stated - up until the derail - this board is discussing women's rights, sex and gender.

The women here are not out and about assaulting trans people. Go and find some MEN to talk to about that.

This ^^

Tall women are a subset of women. Women of colour are a sunset of women. White women are a subset of women...

Women are not a subset of women. Neither are transwomen: they are a subset of men.

I guess you could argue that transmen are a subset of women.

will you react irrationally and become aggressive and assaulting like our Bill above if people call you cis

This is disgusting slander.

I do not 'react irrationally' on this topic - it's carefully considered and involves lived experience - do NOT bring misogynistic tropes about 'irrational women' onto a feminist thread.

I do not 'become aggressive' - this is just playing into anti-feminist tropes around 'angry women'.

And seriously - and consider this as righteous anger, because I've had about enough of the emotional manipulation from you people on this issue - assault ? Absolute slander. The women here are not out and about assaulting trans people. Go and find some MEN to talk to about that.

I'm going to report your post, because the implications are vile.

@PerkyPomPoms

:)

Ask your son - he seems to have all the answers

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

Anyway, my post wasn't directed at you.

I'm sorry but this is a forum, you cannot silence me purely because you have run out of things to say. IS this how the feminist bit is round here then? Interesting to see @YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet. I would certainly feel hostility if I were trans. Better keep those guidelines as it is before the real spew starts to unleash

Please note that this is not an invitation to further debate.

Guess I didn't make that rock grey enough.

@Billy21

Oh okay.

GailCindy it might be worth starting a new thread on the reasons why cis is an helpful term that feminists disagree with. It's a useful topic to explore and expand on, but it's going to get lost on this thread which is specifically about the focus of the pinned guidelines in this area of MN.

I don't see how we automatically become the subset when there is far more of what I don't mind calling cis women than trans women. I fail to see that I have less social privilege than a trans woman in honesty and that is the foundation of my view according to my son and that is why we wont agree. I believe men have more privilege but on a scale depending on other factors like race and ability. But not trans women. I've seen one beat up by a group of guys in Leicester Square. Never seen that happen to a woman just out the blue some blokes jump her and beat her up. I've seen too many men get violent with their partners or exes in public.

Can you not see how an ideology that asserts that personality determines 'gender', which then supercedes sex in determinng what it is to be female or male, is every bit as regressive as the presumption that generarions of feminists have struggled against, that sex determines personality, aptitude, social role?

This rhetorical question basically states that the idea that what you like to do or wear or think determines your gender/sex undermines the feminist movement's achievements in quashing stereotypes about women which infringed their human rights as well as their everyday choices. My son broke it down for me.

I'm honestly not sure how much more clear this can be made. This is a feminist board. We center women. We do not view women through the lens of what are we in relation to Y, because we're feminists. We are not going to decenter women no matter how much that may confuse or agitate people who are not used to women being centered.

So no, we're not going to accept terms that suggest that women are a sort of side category within the greater group "women". We are the category. It's that simple - no qualification required.

Please note that this is not an invitation to further debate.

You're obviously comfortable enough to not want to take the steps one can take to change your body or the way you expect people to refer to you (she/her).

The problem with 'cis', and 'terf', and the title of the talk guidelines in this section, is that they all presume to define us women and our feminism not in our own right, in relation to our experience of what it is to be female, but only in relation to transgender ideology and 'trans rights'.

This is the argument that some NT people use. They go onto say that they are normal and the ND people are abnormal, that is why they need the label and NT people do not. They don't want to be defined based on the fact they do NOT have an abnormality. That is what you are saying here, you are the normal thing and trans people are the abnormal thing.

Further, 'cis' is innacurate, problematic, and offensive because it asserts that those of us who don't identify as trans / NB can therefore be presumed to be comfortable with / to identify with the 'gender role' we were 'assigned at birth'. Feminists reject the notion that adherence to sexist stereotypes is what makes a person a proper woman or a real man, and that being male or female should determine a person's social roles... that's what makes us feminist!!

I had to read this a few times and get my son to have a look too and he put his finger on it. Not literally, he would want me to add.It just seems to contradict itself. If a feminist believes that men or women do not have to follow stereotypes of their assigned sex in the way that you describe, then you would believe that whoever you are, you meet the standards/expectations of your gender. Basically the whole idea of "gender roles" is irrelevant once you believe there is no such thing as a "male" thing or "female" thing so you wouldn't feel offended by someone using a term that means you feel comfortable as your assigned sex.

The next part where you talk about the fact that some or even most trans people might transition because they like things that are typically for the opposite sex is the only thing that I fully agree with and can see how that might push children into making big decisions that are unnecessary.

But that doesn't make me see the people themselves as a bigger risk for sexual assault or violence.

I wasn't going to reply on here again but saw your post. Thanks for seeing that I am being genuine. I still do not agree that cis is offensive but I can see why we have too make sure it is really right for kids to start to transition.

I won’t call myself a cis-woman because that’s capitulating to TRAs’ demands that we accept we’re just one subsection of women, among as many others as they want to invent. Women are women, just as men are men.

“Cis” is less obviously an insult than TERF (I don’t define myself in relation to trans-identifying people or any other group), but I find it actually more belittling.

Cis is to women as caffeinated is to coffee.

Redundant.