British woman found guilty of making up rape claims

That's why I think describing these men as monsters or animals is damaging. Or talking about nature,instincts,testosterone etc. It makes it sounds like they have no control,no limits. Like there is no other choice than rape ,push,force themselves.

I know they can ...if they want to. If they consider your wants and wishes. If they don't see women and their bodies as possessions. If they don't see sex as their God given right. If they don't see their urges as primal,necessary and to be fulfilled at all costs. Because they can't help themselves.

And before anyone says NAMALT: every a woman takes a man as a sexual partner, she's playing russian roulette with her safety. We have an absolute right to refuse to do that any more.

angell84 and I too have feared to say no to a man in case he confirmed my suspicion that he might be a rapist.

In the 1970s some feminists advocated female separatism: that we basically stop fucking men, have as little to do with them as possible, and adopt celibacy or lesbianism. I think that those women had a point.

ah yes, the boundary pushers who think that 'no' is the start of a negotiation :(
I'm sorry that you've had to endure these attacks Angel :(
I dont know what the answer is except keep facing them down and standing together with other women

There's a march for justice on Sunday 6th January.
It starts at 12pm outside the Cypriot embassy.
The information is on The Gemini Project Facebook and twitter.

I still remember that German guy standing over me.

Me saying to him "I said no!"

And him looking down at me and saying "but you are saying no to ME!"

If I can try to get it across - he conveyed in every word of his statement , that as a woman I was worth so much less than him, a man, how could I say no to what he wanted

@bd67th but what can women do? Women are smaller than men. What power fo we have?

Do you think if we start to have sex with a man, and say stop mid way through - he would stop? I am thinking of the men that I have been with in the past. The men I have said "no i don't want to do something, while we are having sex".

Not one of them cared that I didn't want to do it. Not one. Every single one made me do wht they wanted.

I feel like alot of men have the inherent idea that they are worth more than women, and they simply do not care what the woman wants.

Five examples of this happening to me.

I had sex with one guy who asked me again and again and again to have sex without a condom. I said no. He would not take no for an answer. He asked me again and again and again. He did not care in the slighest what I wanted.

I was having sex with a guy and he asked me to do something. I said no. He began to physically push my body into the position that he wanted anyway. I said "i said no! You have to respect that!"

He said "but you are saying no to ME!"

I said no again. He said "because you are unwilling - get out of my flat". He was really angry at me saying no. And he made me leave in the middle of the night.

I was in a room with another guy. We had met on holiday, and I simply wanted to have a drink with him in his hotel room. I did not want to do anything sexual. He kept asking me. I kept saying no. He pushed me into having sex.

Another guy wanted to do something and I said no -- and he said "how dare you disrespect me". He was awful.

One boyfriend - at certain times , I would say "I don't want sex" and he would push and push me into having sex. He would not take no for an answer.

At this current time period in history - men are very cruel to women. And governments allow them to get away with it.

If a woman really wants sex with a man, and is clearly enjoying it. If half way through she says "this hurts can we stop" and he continues, that is still obviously rape.

A third of men don't think so and a third of women don't either, which is why I'm now celibate and wishing I could stop fancying men.

This idea that consent is irrevocable is a huge problem. People treat having sex like buying a house, with no backsies allowed after you've signed the contract. Sexual consent is actually not a contract and can be revoked at any time during the sex, for any reason, by any party.

@RevealAll four? Wow, that is alot.

wrt the consent issue.

I am horrified that I have seen what I regard as several disinformation commentaries about this case.

My sole comfort is that I have no ready way of knowing if these are genuine and very isolated or actually part of an "all chaos is good" disinformation campaign.

Why is more not being made of the actions of these men with regards to how “ consensual” sex with one woman and 12 men is even a thing?

True story :In my youth I had consensual sex with four men from the rugby team at a house party. Bit bravado, bit quite fancied it, bit drunk. However the men in question although they gave it a go were clearly not comfortable with it. And I quickly lost interest with the logistics involved .To the point where one told the others to bugger off. We had a chat and he said he’d always quite fancied me if I wanted to go out with him again. Next morning the other three were perfectly lovely and any time I bumped into them in town they were friendly and polite. No judgement at all.
So yes you can have group consensual sex but what happened in Cyprus was clearly something else.
Frankly those men are an embarrassment to themeselves and their parenting. As a mother I’d be making my son publicly apologise to her not suing her.

Still obviously rape*

Surely a woman consenting to sex that she doesn't really understand is still rape?

For someone to consent to this we have to assume that a woman not only consented to having sex with 12 men. That she also continued to consent throughout. Let's say she 'didnt fully understand what she was getting into" when she actually realises what having sex with 12 men is like, she still continues to consent.

Even when she gets to man 12 she is still consenting.

Even when it's causing her injuries severe enough to see a Dr, she is still consenting.

Can you imagine any woman consenting to this? Can you imagine any woman providing enthusiastic consent throughout sex with 12 men? Consent isn't just a yes at the start, it's continued throughout.

If a woman really wants sex with a man, and is clearly enjoying it. If half way through she says "this hurts can we stop" and he continues, that is still obviously. Even though she was keen at the outset

We have to assume at no point during the enthusiastic consensual sex with 12 men does the woman say "this hurts can we stop". At no point does she give any indication that this is no longer what she wants

To the young woman going through this ordeal, I believe you and support you as do so many thousands of people.

(and if anyone reading this has a connection to the family, please feel free to pass along the support on this thread if it might help)

I’ll donate to the crowd fund and pray for a safe return home soon.

Add to that the Govt's proposals for age verification to block under-18s from accessing porn sites is run by ......Pornhub, the global portal that pushes the stuff.

Some great comments on this thread - and Sarah Vine nails some of the issues behind this:
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7841551/SARAH-VINE-Gang-sex-terrifying-culture-abuse-corroded-minds-young-men.html
Unfortunately I don't think that she realises that it is her husband's government who have given the green light to pornographers and enabled them to directly access schools, institutions like the NSPCC, Girl Guides etc. Because when you tell children that they have no right to boundaries and that women / girl's boundaries are irrelevant if men want access to them when vulnerable, then of course some boys will believe that girls are there for the taking. And when you enable a 'no shame ' culture where fetishists and pornographers are allowed to share their kinks directly with children (as we saw in the Warwickshire County Council porn and fetish for children scandal), then children's beliefs about what is acceptable are perpetually eroded.
It is good that this young woman is getting so much support now - but how we challenge the beliefs of young men that led to this awful situation I have no idea.

An 18 year old woman, or any woman, who wants to have sex with one man, clearly does not agree to have sex with any of his mates, by saying yes to that one man.

The idea that she would credibly say yes to 11 of his mates at the same time is just ludicrous, something from a particularly vile porn film.

Pallisers hit the nail on the head.

We all know that a woman consenting to have sex with 12 men at the same time is highly unlikely - this without the physical evidence of bruising etc. Why do we have to pretend that in case some deeply vulnerable woman has ostensibly given "consent" to just this then we must presume that the average woman is up for it? Why are we contorting our common sense to try to pretend that porn is actually real life.

Amazing the presumption that all sex is consensual - even porn-fueled extreme shit.

So effectively legal justice for women has been sacrificed, because to secure this justice, we would need to spoil people’s enjoyment of porn and challenge their misogyny.

If we said categorically ‘no woman ever wants [sex with 12 men] ...except maybe a vanishingly rare someone who is very mentally vulnerable or unwell who might say she does (or even if we said that this straw woman probably doesn’t exist) .... then it follows that having consensual sex with 12 men isnt a thing that would ever happen in real life with any woman, because women’s bodies and our human psychology are not built to have sex like that without seriously awful consequences for the woman.

.. but for us to even say that or to acknowledge that reality in court as part of a legal argument, would ruin a porn fantasy for some people. It would make them have to take a long look at themselves and at what they are watching for entertainment and fundamentally reconsider how they think about women.

So instead of doing that challenging work, and in fact in order to bolster up the misogyny, we see legal arguments that seriously try to present that a 18 year old woman would happily have sex with 12 men.

Thats way beyond implausible and it is totally fucked up that anyone would think that it is likely. As a society we’ve been socially groomed by porn and women are massively vulnerable because of it.

She was found guilty on the basis of a now retracted confession written in pidgin English. Chances of a successful appeal are high on a number of grounds.

The alleged attackers will be protected by their govt. and will never be sent back for trial. Our govt. will continue to call Israel a 'friend' in the hope it will buy a few more bombs.

It would appear from an article in the Times today that the men are well connected back in Cyprus.

Which will surprise no one.

this is madness -
UK MUST STAND UP AGAINST THIS ...
The Government will intervene .. and society must back them up.
This woman has been treated so badly, shows how inept the EU is.
As a society we can show Cyprus what we feel... end tourism and they are crippled .... they do not deserve UK visitors....

These sick men should be punished -

Rapists should be castrated - world is too soft with these creeps

Signed and donated.

Rapists can rape with impunity everywhere it seems.

The Mum of the victim has been interviewed for BBC it sounds like this poor lass is in a living hell.
The evil that men do.
good that the legal fund is climbing.
www.gofundme.com/f/Help-Teen-Victim-Get-Justice-In-Cyprus?utm_source=customer&utm_medium=copy_link-tip&utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet

Sarah Vine has commented on this.

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7841551/SARAH-VINE-Gang-sex-terrifying-culture-abuse-corroded-minds-young-men.html

I think we all know who benefits and why the system is set up like this. We always knew. Which is why feminism was needed. Now more than ever.

And yet there are women arguing that it would be harmful to women to presume a young woman doesn't want to have sex with 12 men on an average night out. The mind boggles.

Now I have to think they can't even seek medical attention without being at risk of imprisonment themselves.

Again I ask: who benefits from this? Rapist men do. Women suffer.