Female staff shun MOD's pongy new mixed sex loos

I don’t think taking away Male only spaces is the answer. How on earth is that fair! We can’t campaign and complain about our rights being violated and then say the solution is to do that to the other one. We invalidate our cause by unreasonable comments like that

A third space would be ideal but thoroughly impractical for small businesses who only have space for two toilet facilities. Huge corporations yes. Otherwise, no.

The thing about male smells is not their poo. It's the fact their urine smells noticeably different. When it splashes everywhere it turns into yellow runnels that become very pongy indeed.

To be honest I wonder if any man would object to unisex loos. They get cleaned much more frequently, because they are wiped down by a majority of 50% of users. Therefore it is likely that if you are a man you are using a freshly wiped loo seat.

Beverley
This is a genuine question. What IS the solution?

Feminists have been saying for several years now, the solution is

Keep male spaces for male-only.
Keep female spaces for female-only.
Introduce additional mixed sex, gender neutral, unisex, whatever you want to call it spaces for everyone and anyone who is happy to use them.
This will include transpeople (because the presence of a transperson automatically makes a single space mixed sex anyway).
Do this WITHOUT taking away spaces for disabled people, women or men.

By "spaces" I mean ALL spaces, eg, a mixed option for The Olympics, for loos, for prisons, for swimming sessions, cycling races, weightlifting contests, changing rooms, dorms, whatever, every and any.

Basically, ring-fence female spaces, and then do whatever so transpeople can be included in whatever it is without taking away women-only spaces.

(A bit like how there used to be a Hampstead Heath male pond, female pond and mixed pond, but obviously now we only have 2 mixed sex ponds and one male-only pond)

So is it true that men's shit smells worse than women's?

Funny how they don’t ever think of making the gents gender neutral and leaving the ladies untouched
This ^^ is the answer. It's obvious that there are many more MtF trans people than FtM so it makes sense to hive off some of the men's over -provision and give it to the transfolk. Except that wouldn't give them the validation they seek now would it? And that's what makes this problematic as it turns a practical issue into something very sinister indeed, as we already know.

Funny how they don’t ever think of making the gents gender neutral and leaving the ladies untouched...

Or at the MOD they could have changed half and half of the facilities to be equally fair to transmen as well as transwomen...

Women make smells in the toilet too.
Nowhere near as bad as men's!
Women rarely piss over the seat and floor.
I would go to great lengths to avoid using mixed sex toilets.

Yeah third spaces is the answer - NOT the conversion of existing women's toilets into gender neutral - which is what they seem to do at the moment. Women's toilets have queues enough outside them already - men's never seem to - convert a couple of the men's to gender neutral.

Everyone magically catered for, without the loss of the women's facilities.

My question is this, if men want single sex toilets, women want single sex toilets and disabled people (quite rightly) don’t want to give up the sole rights to their toilets then where are transgender people (transmen or transwomen) supposed to go? They go to the toilet that is appropriate to their biological sex, and they stop pretending they are the only group who have difficulty accessing the toilet when out and about. Try needing a hoist, or more commonly being the opposes to the disabled person you are caring for who needs 1:1 supervision. They feel uncomfortable they don’t have no way of accessing the toilet.

Exactly, Beverley. So jarring and worrying. Not any place I will take my family to eat, certainly.

And right now,.I don't want to think of a solution to this problem that was artificially created and as such women's facilities are being reduced everywhere I look. Even at a fecking women's hospital. FFS. Why do we have to deal with the ramifications of this issue and come up with a solution?

Third spaces is the answer. Let Stonewall and all the other lobby groups on the corporate gravy train start using some of the mega thousands of taxpayer's £££ that they receive to campaign for and build third spaces.
This would never be a problem (unless of course the issue is personal validation at the expense of women).

@Thmyscira - me too. A long dark corridor of sound proof booths down which I had to walk on my own. I did not like it.

The thing is the Mirror reported this (great) and then devalued (probably deliberately) the whole article by getting the most idiotic military person to comment about ‘political correctness gone mad’ etc

My question is this, if men want single sex toilets, women want single sex toilets and disabled people (quite rightly) don’t want to give up the sole rights to their toilets then where are transgender people (transmen or transwomen) supposed to go?

I wouldn’t want to walk into a women’s toilet it I was a transman with facial hair. Likewise I would not want to walk into a Male toilet if I was a transitioning transwoman with breasts, women’s clothes etc.

This is a genuine question. What IS the solution?

I am a woman. I want single sex toilets. I do not believe I a transwoman is female. BUT I do see there is a problem and a no sensible solutions which do not impinge on the rights of women (in particular) or men to have safe single sex spaces.

They aren't gender neutral toilets. They are pissoirs.

I've been to a few restaurants lately with gender neutral facilities and felt vulnerable and unhappy every time.

I didn't complain due to being out in a friendly atmosphere with friends but will drop them a line later this week, I think.

We need to say something to these organisations, we need to send them links to studies. We need to stress the implications of possible litigation that will come their way if an assault happens on their premises.

@reginafelangee they don't tend to piss everywhere though. Being sat down for a pee reduces your arcs somewhat.

Also, men have a thing about massive, long, shits. Yes my shit smells too but I don't take hours to do it and I clean up after myself. Take your MRA apologia somewhere else.

Given that women tend to keep their toilet facilities cleaner, of course they should have the right to use clean facilities. Men appear to be less bothered about keeping their facilities clean, so why should they have the right to benefit from women cleaner facilities and to mess up those clean facilities?

"It's much nicer in here. This a good idea."
Said by a man in the 'Toilet With Cubicles' at the Hammersmith Lyric. The women present frowned and looked away.

I wonder if they did any kind of equality assessment before going ahead?

I would guess, on previous experience, not.

Or they've "lost it"

Can an FOI request be done to find out?

Women make smells in the toilet too.

This is a ridiculous argument.

The MOD have a particular problem with sexual assault of female staff by male staff so this is a particularly dodgy decision. I wonder if they did any kind of equality assessment before going ahead?

I do, though, have a hard time finding merit in the argument that women have a right to nicer (i.e. less smelly) loos than men. Which seems to be the focus in that article.

@Uncompromisingwoman thank you, I will have a look.

You have my sympathies Bluepeace. The civil service has been policy captured at the highest levels with Stonewall giving special awards to senior men who remove single sex toilets from women.
A Womans Place has some excellent information about the hazards for women from mixed sex toilets:

womansplaceuk.org/gender-neutral-toilets-dont-work-for-women-2/

I'm civil service and we are moving into a new building in 2 years, I'm so worried they're going to make gender neutral toilets to be all "modern". I'm scared to bring it up to the planning committee in case of how I'm perceived. I find it hard to articulate.

It also occurs to me that women will be expected to use tampon dispensers in view of men when we already get enough shit as it is about 'that time of the month' etc. Our male colleagues seeing us purchasing tampons is exactly what we need.

This is all utterly toxic for women. I hate it. When did women first start fighting for, and organising their own private facilities? Victorian times wasn't it? And now they're being taken away from us in the name of diversity.