We need to talk about what transgender means

And jane

Am with Lang. It’s really that simple

Gender dysphoric males still need to stay out of female-only spaces.

I don't understand this elevation of the suffering of the gender dysphoric male. Yes, it's painful to have GD. Is it any more painful than any other mental health condition? Why are schizophrenic men not getting all this special love and care - their outcomes are truly terrible. Male suicide rate - also terrible. GD is not some special category of 'terrible, horrific, must have society turned inside out to cope with'.

Shoudl GD adults be able to dress in the gender stereotypes attached to the other sex ? Sure. Should they be able to rename themselves a stereotypically feminine name ? Ok. Should they be able to access medical care to deal with the GD if intractable ? Yes (with the caveat that I think SRS is unethical in many ways). Should they be sacked for being feminine males ? No. Should a landlord refuse to rent to them solely on the basis they are feminine males ? No.

And all that's enough! They don't need to use their (real) GD to ride roughshod over women and children. Most of public society is mixed - it's only a tiny % of spaces that are single sex. It's not hard for GD males to stay out of those spaces.

As for the non-dysphoric males, f*ck off. I don't give two hoots about you and your needs.

OP you need to read the Beaumont Society thread.

OldCrone yes I noticed that. It looks like an assertion of the right to categorise everybody. I think the modern day equivalent would say c*s instead of man/woman.

Escaping trauma should include the shitshow that young women's sex lives have become thanks to internet porn. I honestly wonder about the link between ROGD and exposure to violent/degrading porn. I might want to rapidly identify out of the group who appear to have all manner of nasty sexual things done to them as standard.

The only category of trans that us feminists need concern ourselves with are the small children being told they play with the wrong toys and the teenage girls who are transitioning to escape trauma/as a copy strategy for autistic spectrum disorder/because society is so lesbophobic it’s easier to be a ‘straight male’.

Absolutely agree. Repeal the GRA. The purposes for which it was created no longer exist.

Repeal the GRA.

Yes we need to talk about it. The entire emperor's new clothes of trans. There's gender dysphoria. And AGP. That's it, full stop.

The problem with retaining a distinction for 'true transsexuals' is that not only has it has proved to be the foot in the door to our rights erosion but it gives credence to the idea of souls who really are trapped in the wrong sex body. Which is impossible.

The entire concept of trans needs...critical analysis (words chosen carefully to avoid deletion). .

I refuse to hand out starvation diet sheets to anorexics or admire the emperor's new clothes.

“People can't change sex. The GRA was only instituted due to societal homophobia about gay marriage. It should be repealed and men should learn to accept their non-conforming brethren. That's it. No more to it than that.”

That works for me and is workable in law. Facts not feelings. Simples.

Yes, you're right Prion.

I don't see why women should get to define trans any more than trans people should get to define what a woman is TBH.

I don’t think any general societal group (excluding limited clubs which are bound by rules) should get to singlehandedly define their own, or any other group. Definitions are generally decided by society, added to dictionarys according to that usage (though even that seems as if it might be open to lobby groups) and perhaps then written down in more specific terms when and if they are embedded in law.

My point would be that laws should be created based on terminology that has a specific and limited meaning. Part of our problem in defending our rights is that the term women was considered so well defined that no definition was considered necessary.

The current definition of trans is so vague as to cover most of the population and any law created around it will be wide open to abuse.

Pencils
That transgender umbrella has "man/woman" under it defined as 'living in gender appropriate to gender identity and congruent with genitalia'. Isn't that the definition of someone who isn't transgender? Does that mean that everyone is actually under the trangender umbrella?

I meant to post this photo from my new scientist book "being human" a year ago but was so disappointed with this page I threw it under a bed and forgot about it. It's only just resurfaced. It's heading back there now.

New scientist is generally not woke as far as I've worked out so I think it's potentially a token piss take. The previous pages on sex and brains etc were scientific.

I'm not interested in the false beliefs of men, or how I distinguish between varieties of men with false beliefs

Gender just means sex stereotypes throw out the stereotypes, treat all humans as human, separate by (immutable) sex when necessary for safety, fairness, dignity.

And as Sweary isn’t about I feel the need to add #fuckkind

Here is a 'trans umbrella' from 1994.

From this page:

public.oed.com/blog/march-2018-update-release-notes-formal-language-sexuality-gender-identity/

As ever Lang is more patient than I am.

This is why the experience of wives of "transexuals" is relevant. They can see how the transexual claim to womanhood is as flimsy as any other claim to womanhood made by any other male.

If a male person errneously thinks they are/ought to be female, in what way is this any different from other forms of psychiatric delusion?

It's not. But somehow the trans lobby has persuaded huge numbers of people that being transgender is similar to being gay, so shouldn't be considered as a psychiatric disorder.

I don't understand why so many people are convinced that having a delusion that you have been born in the wrong body is similar to being attracted to someone of the same sex.

Because I think transexuals are getting thrown under the bus by the whole debate so yes, I think it would be helpful to have a proper distinction

There isn't one. There has never been the aim of being one, ever since the political movement began. I'll post the 1995 image again, so you can see. The distinction isn't between transsexual and transgender in the way you seem to think it is. Transgender has always been a branding exercise creating a term that conflate all the groups named in the image, between which there are distinctions.

The sociopolitical movement did the conflation because its aim is to abolish sex as any meaningful distinction in society. Many transsexuals were and are front of centre in this political movement and their lobbying has resulted not just in legislation, but the wording of that legislation, with the express intent of dispensing with sex in such a way that nobody would notice until it's too late. Well, we've noticed.

Nobody and nothing of the adult XY variety has been thrown under a bus - only women and child safeguarding.

If a male person errneously thinks they are/ought to be female, in what way is this any different from other forms of psychiatric delusion?

Simply, transgender is an internal feeling that you, as a person, meet more gender stereotypes associated with the sex opposite your own.

More and more it seems to be less about internal feelings and more about how the transgender person is perceived and treated by others.

Being ‘nice’ to transsexuals got us into the mess we are in today where predatory men are being locked with vulnerable women and raping them, female victims of sexual assault can no use rape crisis centres for fear of having to share sleeping arrangements with men, where young women who have dedicated their lives to sport are being pushed out by men with male physical advantages, when young girls are expected to get changed alongside grown men and told they mustn’t say ‘no’, where health campaign messages get blurred so women no longer realise they apply to them and may die as a result....

I promise I will read the whole thread but wanted to jot down what I think transgender means before anything else.

Simply, transgender is an internal feeling that you, as a person, meet more gender stereotypes associated with the sex opposite your own.

But you can never be the opposite sex and these feelings do not indicate any similarity to or affinity with the opposite sex, merely to stereotypes which unlike sex, fluctuate with time periods, fashion trendsand cultures.