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Original poster

We need to talk about what transgender means

190 replies

smemorata · 29/12/2019 11:00

Now that Stonewall has put just about everyone who ever even thought about wearing a dress under the transgender "umbrella", they have more or less forced women to push back at everyone. I find this really ridiculous and also counterproductive. Women (and men surely?) know that we are talking about different things. For example -

  1. an "AMAB" who feels acute gender dysphoria and goes through a lengthy process (both legally and medically) to gain a feeling of acceptance is not the same as -
  2. an "AMAB" who occasionally wears women's clothing but also enjoys male privilege in most situations
  3. an "AMAB" who always wears very OTT sexualised "feminine" clothing as part of a fetish which women are expected to collaborate in.
  4. a woke "AMAB" who dresses as a man, has a beard but claims to know what feeling like a woman is. Has no intention of giving up male genitalia but expects women to recognise it as female.

I have met some lovely people who are in category 1 and would actually have no problem in treating them as women in most (though not all) circumstances. But what do they have in common with the others? Are we expected to forget that festishes exist? I really resent the way that the MRAs and TRAs are asking us to treat such very different people in exactly the same way - and that's before taking into account the ROGD people and trans men. I don't see how the debate can move on until these differences are recognised.

OP posts:
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Ereshkigal · 30/12/2019 12:20

Especially considering trans people are statistically more likely to be subject to assault be it sexual or physical ..

Not true. There is no data which proves this as there are no reliable numbers of trans people or agreement on what a "trans person" actually is.

HorsWithNoDoeuvres · 30/12/2019 12:20

As a single woman, I am much safer than a woman in a heterosexual relationship.

Oh. My. God.

That's why I'm here - It's blindingly obvious when you hear it; I've never even thought about that.

Chilling.

Ereshkigal · 30/12/2019 12:19

Thanks for giving feminist posters the opportunity to articulate these points yet again though.

ahenderson270 · 30/12/2019 12:18

Especially considering trans people are statistically more likely to be subject to assault be it sexual or physical .. they're either beaten up for being different or raped based on someone's fetishes surrounding them .. but of course trans people are the threat here!!

You know .. more people .. trans included would be 100% more inclined to have this discussion with you all if it were indeed a discussion but look how you've treated me for thinking differently .. at no point have I been invited to fairly and intellectually discuss any of the points I've raised, I've had shade thrown at me, snide remarks made about tiny parts of my posts that have been removed from context intentionally and intentionally made to feel excluded from a special club..

You all do very well talking to each other when everyone is nodding 'oh yes you're so right' but that isn't how change comes about and if you can't be fair and respectful of those who question or feel differently to you then you're not much more than a cliche of bullies with nothing to add to the actual debate.

I've no idea what 'goady' means and if in a way I was offensive and unkind then I'm decent enough to apologise, it certainly wasn't my intent.

I brought the post to admin attention with screen shots and highlighted how the OP may be opening herself up to more trouble at work. I also highlighted a few people who felt it necessary to start a little play ground nastiness with me 🤷🏻‍♀️

Ereshkigal · 30/12/2019 12:17

No I'm proposing that we all try harder to be more accepting remember but then I'm silly and don't know what I'm talking about for questioning the logic behind 'well we don't know which trans people are dangerous so let's keep them away'

It's not about "trans people". It's about males. Who have no right to access female spaces, because it violates the privacy and dignity of women and girls. It's really quite simple Hmm

Datun · 30/12/2019 12:16

You could say that about literally any other person on the planet

No. Women do not represent the same risk. They just don't. Do you understand what risk assessment is?

ThePurported · 30/12/2019 12:15

segregation is segregation

So you want all spaces to be mixed sex? Why?
This feels a bit déjà vu. I hope you're not about to bring Rosa Parks into this, because single-sex spaces for women and girls are not the same as racism.

OldCrone · 30/12/2019 12:14

No I'm proposing that we all try harder to be more accepting remember but then I'm silly and don't know what I'm talking about for questioning the logic behind 'well we don't know which trans people are dangerous so let's keep them away'

You could say that about literally any other person on the planet

Any male person. Are you saying that you believe people can change sex?

Datun · 30/12/2019 12:13

ahenderson270

Do you really not understand that the biggest defining factor in the person doing the assault is their sex? Do you really not understand that?

It would be lovely if it wasn't the case.

And of course, raising boys to respect women is an excellent path.

But until those statistics aren't true, we need to mitigate the risk.

And that risk absolutely increases with mixed sex facilities.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html%3Famp

Every aid agency on the planet are busy funding single sex toilets and changing rooms to stop women being assaulted.

Whilst you appear to advocate for the opposite.

In the teeth of overwhelming evidence that it will harm women.

Why?

Clymene · 30/12/2019 12:12

I agree with you that we desperately need to address the problem of male violence. And yes, if trans people murder and assault women, it's not because they're trans, its because they're male.

Until that problem of male violence is sorted (and more women are killed by their intimate partners than are killed by terrorists), then separating us from them provides a modicum of safety.

As a single woman, I am much safer than a woman in a heterosexual relationship.

OldCrone · 30/12/2019 12:12

It doesn't matter how cleverly you dress it up, how you play with wording or how superior you think you are in your position or intelligence segregation is segregation.

Well yes, of course in some circumstances we segregate by sex. Because 'sex' is about the two classes of humans and their respective reproductive role, which means our bodies are different.

Are you suggesting that everything should be mixed sex? Including places like prisons?

ahenderson270 · 30/12/2019 12:10

No I'm proposing that we all try harder to be more accepting remember but then I'm silly and don't know what I'm talking about for questioning the logic behind 'well we don't know which trans people are dangerous so let's keep them away'

You could say that about literally any other person on the planet

Ereshkigal · 30/12/2019 12:07

Personally if you think the only way to protect women from men is to isolate us all completely then let's start living completely separate.. like on different land masses and only breeding through IVF .. we'll be safe then right ..

Oh, so you're advocating for the forced imposition of mixed sex spaces across the board?

ahenderson270 · 30/12/2019 12:05

It doesn't matter how cleverly you dress it up, how you play with wording or how superior you think you are in your position or intelligence segregation is segregation.

Personally if you think the only way to protect women from men is to isolate us all completely then let's start living completely separate.. like on different land masses and only breeding through IVF .. we'll be safe then right ..

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr we spend more time and effort in properly educating children, especially boys around consent, feminism and women's rights.

How we've dealt with sexual assault as a society has NEVER worked and is in desperate need for change but I'll never accept that change involves segregation .. to me that's on a level of ridiculousness as arming teachers with guns to protect kids from school shooters!

If a trans person assaults anyone it's not because they're trans.. it's because of the factors exposed to in childhood that make them unable to distinguish that barrier .. being trans is incidental .. Ted Bundy wasn't a serial killer because he was handsome and charming.. he was exposed to a childhood that triggered his already elevated risk factors of psychopath personality discovered in an MRI .. as much as you want to claim sex is biologically determined a large cause for violent behaviour is rooted in biology and then the addition of a childhood trauma or impacting event.. if that person happened to be trans then that is mere coincidence and segregation of all trans people as a hope of keeping yourself safe is as ludicrous as it would be to have all handsome and charming men segregated too!!

We need to talk about what transgender means
We need to talk about what transgender means
Ereshkigal · 30/12/2019 12:05

Yes please. Can we have a definition? Is surgery the point where a male becomes a woman?

Because that would put you at odds with a large number of TRAs. And a considerable number of them are not very nice and don't respect your right to that opinion and will tell you so quite bluntly.

ThePurported · 30/12/2019 12:04

For me gender is a biological not a psychological thing so if previous men have had all the operations and medication and then want to be called a woman OK but a bloke in a dress who wants to be considered as a woman no not ok. It's a bloke in a dress.

It's all the same to me. Women are not eunuchs, nor are we men who have grown big moobs. This idea that castrated men can be lumped in with women has been around for a very long time. I find it revolting and I don't understand why any feminist would want to promote such a regressive idea.

DuMondeB · 30/12/2019 12:03

What is a 'fully transgendered woman'?

I think that’s a transman! Such tricky language, isn’t it?

Male human and female human is so much clearer!

OldCrone · 30/12/2019 12:01

I can't understand how a fully transgendered woman believing she is now a woman impacts on your fight for fair treatment of our gender

What is a 'fully transgendered woman'? I don't object to such a person believing anything they want to. But I object to people trying to force me to believe it as well.

Ereshkigal · 30/12/2019 12:00

That is (deliberately?) misrepresenting what people here say.

What? No! Surely not!

HorsWithNoDoeuvres · 30/12/2019 11:59

Do you mean Justhadathought's post where she refers to Layla MORAN?

LOL

Ereshkigal · 30/12/2019 11:59

Oh that thread. Before it was shut down (for privacy of the OP reasons I believe, not rampant transphobia) I seem to remember some rather goady posts from this poster. Perhaps I'm misremembering.

HorsWithNoDoeuvres · 30/12/2019 11:59

* ...*what you're doing here is "trans woman abused people in her care .. all trans women are dangerous to women and children and should be segregated"

That is (deliberately?) misrepresenting what people here say.

It would be more like - transwoman harmed a woman or a child. How can we tell between good and bad. We can't. To be on the safe side we will have to stick to sex to separate people rather than this new-fangled, made up, impossible to define gender idea..

PencilsInSpace · 30/12/2019 11:57

Who has called you a moron?

Do you mean Justhadathought's post where she refers to Layla MORAN?

DuMondeB · 30/12/2019 11:55

Luckily, I saved one of my own posts from that thread. Here it is:

Perhaps a professor of law with an expertise in human rights can help you leave your bigoted opinions regarding women and their rights behind, ahenderson?

Professor Rosa Freedman:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=FYQL5PZ_tSU

Practising what you preach is so important, after all.
When you are done with that you might like to explore the work of (retired Professor) Sheila Jeffreys:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=DTPgmTVt5_Q

HTH

OldCrone · 30/12/2019 11:54

what you're doing here is "trans woman abused people in her care .. all trans women are dangerous to women and children and should be segregated"

I've never seen anything like that here. Maybe you could post a screenshot or a link.

What do you mean by segregated? Transwomen shouldn't be allowed in women-only spaces because they are not women. They are not women because they were born male and people can't change sex. Wishful thinking doesn't change scientific facts.

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