We need to talk about what transgender means

the segregation of people based on the actions of a tiny minority within them.. then fine so be it

Lots of things need to be segregated, and in put into discrete categories: sport being one obvious example; certainly if you believe in equality of opportunity and a level playing field for girls and women.

Anyway, this is about women's rights and spaces - not about the rights and spaces of people who see themselves as trans. Of course we should all have equal civil rights - but this is about conflict of interest. That conflict cannot be wished away. It needs to be managed appropriately. This is the job of politics and law.

Every sex-segregated space there is, women fought for. Even for the right to wear trousers, women fought for, being beaten in the struggle. Women marched in the streets for the first women’s toilet, and the first night of its existence, men burned it down. Women scrimped spare change from skint pockets to fund the first DV refuges and rape crisis centres, because men didn’t see the need. They staffed those refuges with their own labour.

Every single right women have, women fought long struggles for.

Males have NO right to appropriate what women had to fight THEM to win or to claim for themselves the rights and set-asides created to ameliorate millennia of oppression males did not experience and in fact perpetrated — no matter how they identify.

Whatever rights and set-asides TW want or need, they need to fight for them and build them themselves, for themselves.

In fact, if the movement had started out doing that, feminists would have likely joined in to help.

But there is word for what males are insisting on now, in their demands for the fruits of women’s labour: exploitation. And in their demand for female space: colonisation.

It’s the same old patriarchy, done up in new clothes.

If it were only transgender people carrying out sexual assault on the basis of their status I'd be totally on board for this but what you're doing here is "trans woman abused people in her care .. all trans women are dangerous to women and children and should be segregated

Except that is not what is being said. Single sex spaces exist for good reasons. I'd like for that to continue. Trans people can campaign for their own spaces in the same way women have done over the decades. This is not about individuals, but about general principles.

Also, most here don't believe in Tranansgender ideology. We see it for wat it is. An umbrella term under which all manner of people shelter. Everyone from young lesbians told they are in the wrong body; young gay men, who would rather 'transition' than risk coming out to their social circle & family; and middle aged fetishists ( a surprisingly large group, you'll find)....and then the small handful with genuine life long dysphoria who transition to try to find relief from their suffering.

Most here believe these all come under mental health disturbances - not actual material reality. Women are real. Sex is real. One cannot change sex no matter how one identifies. If you accept one part of TRA ideology then you have to accept the whole lot; including male bodies people playing in women's sport; puberty blockers for children; and the whole scale rejection of de-transitioners, as they revela that identity is not a fixed thing, but a shifting internal state.

A sad but incredibly Important point Sid - thank you for reminding us.

The most vulnerable group to murder are babies aged 1 or younger. This is scourge on society. Most are murdered by males in their social group. The fact that most babies spend most of their time with females makes this statistic of male perpetrators even more damming.

Adults who insist they are most at risk of victimhood should remember babies cannot speak for themselves.

LangCleg - exactly right. We can feel for anyone who suffers from delusions that hurt them. I hope they find happiness. But men are not women, full stop.

I don't believe this poster wants a good faith discussion.

I agree; I'm out.

Do you think that single dads send their daughters into the gents alone? Because that would be batshit, wouldn’t it?

It almost hurts.

Everyone knows that this would be a very high risk thing to do. Yet, we are meant to completely ignore that knowledge in order to protect the feelings of those self same men.

what are single fathers meant to do with their daughters??

Do you think that single dads send their daughters into the gents alone? Because that would be batshit, wouldn’t it?

Interesting sentence structure here. We have a problem with MALE people using FEMALE spaces. How they identify is irrelevant, it’s the MALE bit that is the problem. Not the trans identity bit.

No male people in female spaces.

The solution is obvious if you don’t obsfucate with language.

This. And it's very telling that people do.

we have issue with trans women using female spaces ..

Interesting sentence structure here. We have a problem with MALE people using FEMALE spaces. How they identify is irrelevant, it’s the MALE bit that is the problem. Not the trans identity bit.

No male people in female spaces.

The solution is obvious if you don’t obsfucate with language.

ahenderson270

Yes, that's right. Men constitute the class who commit sex offences and are violent.

And whilst I dispute that transwomen are at an equal risk to women, the answer is, of course, a third space.

If transwomen are being subjected to attacks by men, the answer is not to make women's facilities open to men.

Show me where the campaign for a third space is, and I will sign any petition.

Ah ok so because men statistically are the primary offenders we have issue with trans women using female spaces ..

Well statistics can Never be argued with, obviously that is definitely how things are no questions asked about the percentages of male victims of female assailants that don't come
Forward out of embarrassment or risk of loosing their rights to their children, or simply don't understand that their victims cause women clearly don't assault men right???

Or the sons of abusive mothers that hold their silence out of a miss placed love, boys in foster care that are routinely abused by female caregivers in the way of slave labour or for the fact that troubled boys get more money paid for them..

Listen I don't dispute for a moment that on the whole .. albeit I don't think we have a full honest picture of that whole, men pose more threat to women and that of course opening private facilities carries a risk in its self and no I'm not stupid enough to compare transphobia with racism but why is the threat a trans woman feels using the men's bathroom less important? In fact she is much more likely to receive some verbal or physical assault just trying to relieve herself in a men's room than she as a trans woman is likely to pose to anyone in the ladies room.

Then aside from the trans issue .. as a single parent of boys I'm faced with either allowing my boys into the men's toilets which you're telling me puts them at risk cause men are bad.. or bringing them into the ladies .. what are single fathers meant to do with their daughters??

Perhaps instead of making large communal toilets for all we should be considering single cubical bathrooms so that every member of society is safe .. because as a person who values the safety of every person .. I'd prefer to be fighting for that than excluding a trans woman from peeing safely.

Especially considering trans people are statistically more likely to be subject to assault be it sexual or physical ..

Could you post a link to the source of this claim please?

You all do very well talking to each other when everyone is nodding 'oh yes you're so right' but that isn't how change comes about and if you can't be fair and respectful of those who question or feel differently to you then you're not much more than a cliche of bullies with nothing to add to the actual debate.

You're describing TRAs on twitter using T**F blocker, right?

I don't believe this poster wants a good faith discussion.

look how you've treated me for thinking differently .. at no point have I been invited to fairly and intellectually discuss any of the points I've raised

I've politely asked you questions and you have declined to answer them.

I brought the post to admin attention with screen shots and highlighted how the OP may be opening herself up to more trouble at work.

She already had said she was going to get it taken down. It wasn't down to you.

Especially considering trans people are statistically more likely to be subject to assault be it sexual or physical .. they're either beaten up for being different or raped based on someone's fetishes surrounding them .. but of course trans people are the threat here!!

In the UK, there are more transwomen murderers, then there are transwomen who have been murdered. In fact, statistically, a man reduces his chance of being murdered by transitioning.

Goad

Verb

provoke or annoy (someone) so as to stimulate an action or reaction.
"he was trying to goad her into a fight"

and intentionally made to feel excluded from a special club..

Feminism isn't a "special club". You too can give a shit about women and girls!

Especially considering trans people are statistically more likely to be subject to assault be it sexual or physical .. they're either beaten up for being different or raped based on someone's fetishes surrounding them .. but of course trans people are the threat here!!

Not trans people. Men.

Transmen are perfectly welcome in female spaces. Because they are female.

Especially considering trans people are statistically more likely to be subject to assault be it sexual or physical .. they're either beaten up for being different or raped based on someone's fetishes surrounding them .. but of course trans people are the threat here!!

Please post a link to the statistical evidence for this statement.