The LGB Alliance website goes live

Fab

I wasn't sure about the black and white at first but live it now.

A great antidote to the attempt to confuse and cover up bullshit with glitter.

Great 👍

This is brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Particularly love:

1. How they are centring lesbians
2. The clarity and strength with which it is written - agree with every word I've read
3. Men of Quality respect Womens Equality - wow - not heard this before - so brilliant!!!!!

I've seen TRA tweets making it into an accusation that LGB Alliance has support from a lot of straight people.

So no straight people support bonerwall Stonewall then?! Are they really this vacuous?

Many GC women have become somewhat wary about this, as there is a large branch of TRA feminism that argues that feminism is about equality for everyone and everything and not about women at all, no, certainly not centering them or anything or focusing on their inequality and best interests, because that would be annoying, selfish and exclusionary to people born male and would involve saying no to people born male. It's a large part of how feminism has been corporately rebranded by males for the better convenience of males and the silencing of women.

Females tend to get a bit hacked off about this. Particularly since they've spent centuries freeing themselves from the misogyny that good women put everyone else before themselves, and should only want to get around to worrying about their own equality when they've fixed everything for everyone else. Because Mummy.

Hence the whinging on MN main boards at frequent intervals about 'where's Dadsnet, why haven't you created, set up and facilitated a resource male parents because mums organising for other mums without carefully providing for males too, if not first, is naughty and nasty and feminazis and hairy lesbians and probably all frigid'. And the whinging about how dare women selfishly and meanly care about things like losing access to all public resources and living in humiliation and anxiety when there are poor male people needing to take those resources away for their own choice and nurture.

Females have never needed to defend the boundaries more strongly: the primary duty of people born with female biology is not to exist for the benefit of male people. Or to exist as props in the lives of the real people. I don't want that for any female human.

The idea men’s rights have ever or could ever get ground down by feminism is a myth though, the same way lgb rights are in no way trampling heterosexual rights. That’s like saying black lives matter could imply white lives don’t. Groups formed to fight for the rights of the oppressed class don’t need to consider the effect on the ruling class. Women especially need to step away from the idea that we must be nice to everyone as that sex role stereotype socialisation is used to shut us down and manipulate compliance constantly, which is always to our detriment. If we ever end up in a situation where fighting for women’s liberation harms men then it (only maybe) it might be a conversation worth having, but until that ever occurs it’s necessary to step away from the idea that the oppressed group must be fair to the oppressors. It derails focus and is the kind of thing that trans ideology and other mra use to manipulate the conversation to centre them.

I'm not saying that feminism is about equal rights for all, but rather the aim is to make sure women have rights, but not at the expense of anyone else's.

But by everyone having a voice and being listened to and their needs met (within reason and not at the expense of another group) then there can be a semblance of balance and fairness across the individual groups. Of course feminists should argue for women's rights, as I do. But I don't think men's needs should be ground underfoot. I don't think trans rights should be ground underfoot, but I can see how the LGB groups might not be getting their voice heard at the moment. But the outcome will hopefully be that they do and the trans people still have a voice (just maybe not the frothing at the mouth ones).

I’ll take support from straight people over attacks from homophobes who deny our right to same-sex attraction any day.

That’s not the point of feminism. The point of feminism is women’s liberation, not equality or fairness for all. That argument is why feminism has continually been co-opted by many varying schools of thought, and most damagingly by trans ideology. Feminism doesn’t have to be about fairness, it’s allowed to just be about what’s best for women. The same way capitalism doesn’t have to include socialism and vice versa. Lgb may have many aims that also benefit others- like supporting free speech benefits everyone- but they don’t need to support aims that don’t directly benefit their own needs first. That’s why women are in this bloody mess in the first place, the expectation that we must move over and shut up and be nice to the poor minority white males. It needs to be ok for groups to just prioritise their own needs not be nice or fair or equal to others. That’d be the equivalent of the para Olympics being open to everyone- no!

They argue for fairness not only for themselves also but for everyone.

I've seen TRA tweets making it into an accusation that LGB Alliance has support from a lot of straight people. As if we couldn't have any reason for supporting them that isn't nefarious.

I've just donated. I'm as heterosexual as can be, but fully support the campaign about not pushing a trans-agenda in schools (have 2 primary school aged DDs. They can be whatever they want to be later on, but I want them to work it out for themselves and not have words put in their mouths (so to speak) too many speech metaphors and I think the trans-lobby is too shouty.

That's the point of equality, feminism, LGB campaigns and the rest. They argue for fairness not only for themselves also but for everyone. This promoting of equality 'for all' has been missing in some voices, like those attacking JKR for her beautifully written and incredibly MILD tweet.

Patient Griselda was past the point of Women's Aid and the Freedom Programme helping btw, she needed a crisis team, medication and a good parole officer.

Cookie I'm increasingly starting to view women who embrace the 'cis' bit as women happy to embrace and enable their own oppression and that of other women. If that makes them happy, crack on. Whatever floats your boat.

Very, very happy to live and let live until people start insisting that they must forcibly redefine me, my world, my groups, my freedoms and my rights for their own personal benefit and happiness, and demand that I Mummy them by centring them in all things and nurturing their expressing their little personalities with total, Patient Griselda-like self sacrifice.

Then I get pissed off.

There are some really useful insights here.
This is one reason I'm so fond of Mumsnet and wish I had enough time to read every thread carefully. So many things that hadn't occurred to me, new ways of looking at things.
I can't remember when I first saw "LGBT" instead of "LGB," but at the time, it did seem like a natural progression- "straight" and "other." (I went for so long ignoring this issue).
As for "cis," the definition that I mentally use is "cis women" are the ones who don't mind showering or sharing sleeping quarters with bepenised people who identify as something other than men.

Cis is an odd one. Happy with the gender society assigned you? What does that mean? Lack of dysphoria? Conforming to it? Gay men, camp men and women who choose not have children are not conforming to gender expectations in quite major ways. Conforming is NOT going to make them happy but that doesn't mean they want to change. Are they still cis?

Fucking YES.

I'm bisexual and feel utterly voiceless currently.

I'm told by many people my sexuality means I'm gay but don't want to "admit" it. I'm told I'm greedy. It's assumed I'm promiscuous.

I'm told I'm transphobic because I find men and women attractive but do not find a trans woman attractive.

My gay male friends are not labelled transphobic for not finding a trans man attractive. They are as incensed as me that because they are men they are "allowed" to express their sexuality more than me.

Because the crux of it is that society tells us anyone who has or has ever had a penis is priority. If they want to fuck a woman, how dare she say no on any grounds.

My family is full of amazing young women (and men) who I want to protect and nurture into adulthood.

I am a woman. I refuse to be made to feel that a biological males feelings always, always trump mine.

I deserve to feel heard, safe and able to assert my boundaries without being told that I should be "kind" even if I feel unsafe and threatened.

The LGB community has been sidelined and guilt tripped by a group that in reality don't even speak for the majority of the trans community. In fact they make life harder for the trans people they claim to represent.

I cannot tell you how strong my hope is that more and more people will peak trans. Thank you to the LGB alliance for being so brave.

cwen that's a really good point.

I'm not LG or b so my opinion probably doesnt come from a.place of having been through it so I am.obviously open to being told to.bugger off.

But personally I agree It would be nice if it didnt have to be defined. That all children can just be taught about healthy relationships between two consenting adults being what's normal. But then again I Also think that we need the T to stand alone so people see it for the homophobic racist regressive movement it is. As long as theres the lgb to hide behind they will continue to make people afraid of being labelled homophobic and transphobic when asking questions.

But I guess still in some circles LGB people still have alot of prejudice against them sadly and with lesbian erasure already taking place I dont think it's fair to erase them further ...

Really shouldnt be like this though

There are some really useful insights here.

It’s just occurred to me musing on this that the whole concept of LGBTQA+ alphabet soup could in itself be said to be (cis)heteronormative. It’s grouping together anything not-‘straight’, not-heterosexual, not-‘cis’, anything vaguely kinky, ‘queer’ or different, and saying ‘this is varying from the standard‘. Why should we accept that ‘straight’ as the standard and then define anything differing in relation to it. Nope thankyou, not for me.

*think this is the first time ever I’ve found the concept of ‘cis’ in any way useful in discussion, I don’t know who it can truly be applied to though, a very small proportion of people I would have thought.

Cwen yes this ^^

Years ago before I heard much about this on an adult adhd forum there was a question about how there are more people with adhd who are LGBT+ and discussions about why. I was surprised I was the only person who pointed out that gi is different from sexuality and therefore the reasons those with adhd might be over represented within lgb maybe entirely different from t. A lot of people were very confused by this. Lots of explainations about cis etc like I didn’t know what trans was (and actually I didn’t know much about apg side of things) but huge confusion about the idea that sexuality is a fundamentally different thing from gender id (which stands true imho regardless of anyone’s views on trans ideology). It’s like people think heterosexuality goes hand in hand with traditional views of gender expectations, which isn’t something I find true in real life at all, so it’s like people assume that lgb must go hand in hand with non traditional views of gender expectations, which again isn’t a helpful assumption imho. Like as if people lump being the ‘non status quo’ sexuality must mean you are different’ in other ways also.

I’m clearly explaining this badly here..... but I think it felt a bit like a form of othering iykwim, like putting someone in the ‘different’ box and therefore assuming they must therefore be ‘different’ in all ways, which is ignorant (even if unintentionally).

I hope that makes some sense.....

And the site is awesome!! Merry Xmas!

Separating data on sexuality from gender identity is a no brainer really isn’t it, but it’s an illustration of how far down the rabbit hole we are that it seems like a groundbreaking idea. You wouldn’t smoosh together data on race and disability, so why other characteristics?

From the site:
One way to protect same-sex attracted people is, for example, to encourage organisations to record numbers of LGB employees separately to numbers of transgender employees.

I must admit, I hadn't even thought of that, although it seems so obvious when I read it. Also the bit about employers counting "other sexual orientations" like fucking "demiromantic..." It's the Information Age, getting correct information should be a matter of course.

PinkNews reaction is that LGB Alliance is in league with ‘Straight Pride’ (no, me neither, but apparently it’s something a few wankbadgers in USA have done) because their website has a black and white colour scheme. Also, sex isn’t binary, because actual science and literal intersex people (yup, they wrote that).

So good to know they haven’t got any actual objections to the literal website

Merry Crimbo!

This is excellent news. More power to the Alliance!

The website looks brilliant, what a lovely christmas present

will the LGB Alliance have members? I am a bit skeptical about organizations that just ask for support and. donations e.g. The Guardian.