Guardian journalist: Don't debate drag

Thanks for contacting us about RuPaul’s Drag Race UK.

Drag as a cultural phenomenon dates back to Tudor times and has been established as a form of entertainment for many years. It has since become a mainstay of UK Christmas pantomime and has been absorbed into mainstream entertainment on UK television with notable performers such Danny LaRue, Paul O’Grady, Barry Humphries and, of course, RuPaul.

Here is the initial response to my complaint to the BBC on the subject of Ru Paul's Drag Race

"For the past decade RuPaul's Drag Race has entertained fans around the world and has won four Emmy Awards doing so. We are excited to be able to bring the first ever UK show to BBC Three.

We recognise it is not for you but please be assured your views have been brought to the attention of the senior management"

Clearly not an adequate response......and here is my further response - still waiting reply

"This is to further my complaint in light of the entirely inadequate response to my initial complaint ( above). None of my specific points were addressed. These were around the offensive use of demeaning words such as 'Slapper', 'Slag' and so on ( words which are used to demean women) - and the insinuation that female genitals are dirty and/or disgusting. Bear baiting and cockerel fighting were around in Tudor times too - but are now considered inappropriate. Likewise heterosexual men dressing, 'mincing' around, and using words such as 'faggot', 'girly boy' and 'poofter' - for the purposes of general entertainment would now, rightly, be considered offensive - even if presented, and highly popular, on our TVs as recently as the 1970's. Please address my specific points, because this issue is not one which is going to disappear any time soon. Just because drag has been a central part of gay male culture does not disguise the inherent misogyny of much of it. Showing repeated adverts on prime time terrestrial TV which depict ugly images of women as ' cows' is not something I want my granddaughter exposed to. Ru Paul has not been without controversy in the U.S either - with trans rights groups deeming it 'transphobic' and not at all inclusive. And the issue of misogynistic content is a discussion and a debate that is also going on in the U.S amongst both the black and white community - with comparisons to 'black face' being made"

It's the fact that lots of drag acts don't DO anything. Edna Everage would have been funny played by a woman as would Hinge and Bracket. But the RuPaul people.. Just dress up

Open criticism of drag is one of the inevitable consequences of the unwitting embrace of radical trans ideology........and such discussion & criticism will become more prevalent the more it is forced down our throats via mainstream media.

There is already a thread on FWR on the subject of drag -with quite extensive discussion. The case against some of the language and portrayals of womanhood common in drag has no good response... and people know it.

Who would have thought that in 2019 Kenny Everett would be back demanding to use women's toilets and compete in Women's sports

Hoiking.

Yes Les Dawson hooking bosoms.

Hilarious.

Yes, that's how I see things Binterested. Thinking further I'd say that Dame Edna Everage has much in common with Mrs Merton. Both being presentations of women but both lacking the misogyny present in much of drag.

Man informs women what they are and are not allowed to debate in society.

Women wonder why said man (or anyone really with a grip on reality) should think anyone gives a fuck about what they personally 'allow', and carry on as they were.

Dressing up as female characters who are funny (two Ronnies, Cis & Ada) - fine. Dressing up because it’s funny to be female - not fine.

This is why it is like the Black and White Minstrels. It’s the same - it’s just laughing at the concept of black people - ugh what could be more ridiculous. Likewise drag is laughing at women. The way we look. The way we smell . It’s not a humorous look at women’s lives and the funny bits therein. It’s a laugh at the very idea of being a woman because that in itself is funny. It’s why gay men do it.

The arrogance of people saying these things are not up for discussion?! It would be horrifically ironic if it was the trans lobby that managed to stop it and not actual women...

I have just been on YouTube to watch The Two Ronnie's - The Worm That Turned from 1980.

It is both cringewothy in its sexism but strangely edgy in the context of the gender/trans stuff of today (and I still find it funny). Diana Doors is magnificent.
It is set in 2012 when women have taken over the country and are ruling with an iron fist. Men have been made to wear traditional femal clothes, and the women wear the trousers.
Men are forming resistance groups to fight back.
I do recommend a look.

Putting it another way, Cissie and Ada were far more reflective of reality to me than Barbara and Margo in The Good Life.

I was always rather fond of Cissie and Ada on Les Dawson. It seemed to reflect reality in the part of Northern England I was growing up in.

God I loathe The Guardian

The only differences between drag and trans is the degree of delusion in the man pretending to be a woman, and extent to which they have costumed up.

To women who perceive them the effect is the same.

See some Kenny Everett stuff I still find funny apart from when he's got huge plastic breasts on and is called Cupid stunt ha fucking ha.

Two Ronnies fork handles etc classic bit again, just find it uncomfortable when they drag up.

I've just honestly been uncomfortable with it since I was little and that's just the way it is for me. At least now I have worked out why!

The comments Sharron is getting are foul.

Is there any way to tell him that he has an opinion. That wanting to discuss a thing doesn't necessarily mean everyone disagrees with him.

If he entered into discussion he might find he has a persuasive argument... or is that too much to ask of someone whose living is made writing what we could hope are persuasive, interesting articles.

Or is shut up bitch what passes for journalism these days?

I still like The Two Ronnie's though, Kenny Everett was vile, Dick Emery very very weird.

Does anyone remember The Two Ronnie's sketch The Worm That Turned with Diana Doors. Even as a feminist I can still laugh at that.

Oh but I'm not allowed to say ANY of that as a man at the guardian had said it's not allowed.

He can go fuck himself. People might not agree with me but why should I be disallowed from expressing my genuine views and feelings around drag.

I grew up in a similar era shed when men dressed as women for laughs was a staple-

Two Ronnies
Dick Emery
Kenny Everett
Plus more, it was a common thing oh how funny

I was a little kid and it made me feel uncomfortable, like I didn't really get the joke, or something. Now I realise it was because they were taking the piss out of women and of course I was female. It was the same feeling of discomfort when there were jokes involving 'sexy ladies' - that was all over the place too.

I've never liked drag at all and do totally take it as the dominant class mocking subordinate class. Punching down in the worst way.

And they're always obsessed with breasts as well which is a clue it's not a joyful celebration as people seem to like to claim. Always with the massive comedy tits.

I find drag offensive. I've read the debate around the term "woman face" but to me that's what it is - a parody of womanhood. Being told I'm not "allowed" to debate it by a bunch of men is par for the course. I'd call them twats but they lack the depth...

Also to be told that it's not up for discussion (without irony) is again the reason why women are angry.
I have always known those right-on male types were incredibly controlling, even before their more recent labels and fashion choices.

Feel a bit conflicted and I think it's about context. As someone who grew up in the era of The Two Ronnie's, (which is weirdly still funny), I believe its the intent.
What I object to about Drag Race etc.. Is the sexual fetish weirdness mysoginy about it.,which I think is demeaning to women and and insulting. It doesn't have to be so, but it is.

People may argue that I am prudish and puritanical, as as a female from pre-birth, I know when male behaviour feels wrong and creepy.