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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling - Thread 2

464 replies

MoleSmokes · 21/12/2019 02:03

Thread 1 started by @MsMcWibble here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3772685-JK-Rowling
----
twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1207646162813100033

Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?
#IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill
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To start off thread 2 - everyone saying the time was right for this to hit the news stands right after the Election was right!

Maya Forstater's Employment Tribunal case is, by virtue of JK Rowling's support, more popular in The Spectator than Boris Johnson by Boris Johnson, The Tories and The Labour Party!

MOST POPULAR in The Spectator

1. In just a few words, JK Rowling has changed the transgender debate (James Kirkup)

  1. Boris Johnson: Perhaps my campaign was ‘clunking’. But sometimes, clunking is what you need (Boris Johnson)
  2. We’ve just had the best decade in human history. Seriously (Matt Ridley)
  3. Keir Starmer looks and sounds middle class precisely because he’s working class (Isabel Hardman)
  4. Let’s make David Lammy Labour’s next leader (Rod Liddle)
  5. A new leader won’t stop the far left’s domination of Labour (Nick Cohen)

www.spectator.co.uk/

JK Rowling - Thread 2
OP posts:
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17
HandsOffMyRights · 23/12/2019 13:45

In case you're wondering...
This author isn't a fan of JKR Xmas Grin

From the weaponising of suicide and chants of obia, to citing the brave voices of Bergdorf and Fae, Olly single handedly scores a full house with this.

Eyes down, women:

www.independent.co.uk/voices/jk-rowling-transphobia-tweet-children-fiction-books-a9257841.html

DanaPhoenix · 23/12/2019 13:17

I was so happy to see JK Rowling to comment about this. I have always had immense respect for her, as bookworm myself, I was incredibly excited to see an author come along to help ignite a love of reading in children. Of course this wasn't without its pitfalls. I lost a friendship with a friend (recent born again Christian) arguing about how appropriate her books were for children. I was really saddened that this happened and I understood why my friend felt the need to cling to religion at this point in her life. Still I would not change my opinion. It's actually quite horrifying is a better word to observe how similar today's arguments are to back then.

On a brighter note, I had a very interesting day yesterday. Catching up with some extended family for Xmas on my birthday (yes I'm a summer solstice baby). A young girl was present whom I'd only met briefly once before (remarriage of FIL long story). What a clever, articulate and engaging young girl she was. Other family members commented about how much she took to me. Yes she did monopolise my attention for most the time. Her parents were like "Sorry". No I told them don't apologise. I was that girl, decades ago, the only child used to speaking with adults, the brainy (girly swot) that was opinionated, slightly awkward and talked too much.

As the mother of teenage boys I forgot what it was like. That's why I have such an affection for JKR's books...I was like Hermione then, she is like her now. I think JKR has cast a spell. Because I have become more energised than ever to make sure safe spaces are maintained for the current and future Hermiones. I will protect them all fiercely.

Sorry for the excessively long post.... just one more thing, harking back to my Wiccan days....
Blessed Be JK Rowling.

BatShite · 23/12/2019 13:08

Been on holiday and also purposely took a break from trans related stuff for my mental health (not an exaggeration, many threats of rape and violence from random males for speaking my truth gets to me..) but dipped back in today and so glad to see JK has finally bit the bullet and stated her full opinion really..rather than 'middle aged moments' and such like previously. It has been fairly obvious for a while that she believed biological sex exists and matters sometimes so..good to see the many many TRA attacks have not deterred her.

Sad really to see the tribunal result though. But I expect it will continue until a judge is found who actually understands the GRA and such? As it appears this one..didn't.

JanesKettle · 23/12/2019 11:54

whether they are mainly referring to a small percentage of intersex people in their arguments

It's always them dragging intersex conditions into it. Despite being asked not to, by intersex organisations and individuals.

Xenia · 23/12/2019 11:45

I think it can all be pretty simple. Our current gender change laws are fine and we should leave them alone. Those who are trans can change gender under those laws and most of us will treat them kindly and with respect.

Secondly, self ID is ridiculous and I hope the Conservatives do not change the law to allow it.

Thirdly most people want freedom of expression so if James who wears dresses to work on Fridays only and does his once a week self ID wants to say he is a woman he can but in law he remains a man until he's had the full legal sex change.

JanesKettle · 23/12/2019 11:42

Lamahaha

She, and the Irish staff (it's Ireland based) were forced into complying, which for many of the staff (just ordinary folk) must have been extremely confusing

M/c wankery imposed on working people, so intersectional...

Jesse Singal did a whole thing a while back on the craziness of YA, including sensitivity readers. Totally wild. #ownvoice stuff too - authors can only write characters with their own lived experience, anything else is appropriation.

I'm 100% with Lionel Shriver on this one - the point of fiction is to imaginatively enter the experience of others, not to restrict oneself to variations on the memoir.

NotBadConsidering · 23/12/2019 11:38

I got a lovely email back from Dame Kelly Holmes’ agent-type person when I emailed my support and donation after she was harassed and called transphobic by the Specialized twitter account. It is nice when the messages get through.

neonglow · 23/12/2019 11:29

I don’t know if this has been covered already (apologies if so) but has anybody seen the twitter thread by a biologist going into detail about how biological sex isn’t very straightforward?

I just wondered if anyone could break it down a bit clearer and whether they are mainly referring to a small percentage of intersex people in their arguments?

Bezalelle · 23/12/2019 11:25

I just had an email back from Jk Rowling's office thanking me for the support - I emailed last week to express solidarity. Really wasn't expecting a reply! Very pleased that positive messages are clearly getting through.

YourOpinionIsNoted · 23/12/2019 11:14

Me too @hazeyjane, came through this morning. Glad someone read it.

hazeyjane · 23/12/2019 11:04

By the way if anyone has emailed JK on this email [email protected] - I emailed in support and received a response from the office of JK Rowling.

Degustibusnonestdisputandem1 · 23/12/2019 09:01

@TheProdigalKittensReturn I'd love to but fear I'd just be prompting a pile on.... 🤣😬😬

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/12/2019 08:31

RE the Pratchett page I'd just note that there were no male witches...

Degustibusnonestdisputandem1 · 23/12/2019 07:35

Ugh. 🤦‍♀️ my fav Terry Pratchett page on FB has been taken over by the usual Orwellian language and circular reasoning...

Lamahaha · 23/12/2019 06:08

I'm not surprised to hear your experience in the writing community. And yes, JKR is wonderful for this, not only as a woman, but also as a writer, the profession that should be most invested in freedom of expression.

There's a trend now for some publishers to have pre-publication novels checked by "sensitivity readers". These are readers who check to see there is no inadvertent racism, sexism, ableism, no cultural appropriation, etc, that readers might object to. Up to now I've not heard of sensitivity readers specifically for "transphobic" language, but if it ever become a thing they'd have a ton of work. A whole new career opens, since just about all novels written are basically transphobic, ie, they assume gender, they don't refer to their characters as cis-men and women, they assume that all characters are the sex they present as, in other words, they ignore gender identity. Imagine if every character needed an indication as to not only their sex but their gender identity! The ladydick could very well become a perfectly ordinary appendage to your basic heroine, along with a beard and adam's apple.

I have a whole lot of online UK-based writer friend and not one of them has raised the topic. I don't know who is GC and who not -- they never say, and all of the groups I'm in forbid political posts. But none of them have reacted to JKs tweet, anywhere. It's weird, the silence, since it concerns a writer, which we all are!

I don't know if I've mentioned this before but an older, artist friend of mine, who has ties to a retreat centre, said that recently, a theatre group from the USA came for a retreat there, and they were all trans and insisted on pronouns etc.
She, and the Irish staff (it's Ireland based) were forced into complying, which for many of the staff (just ordinary folk) must have been extremely confusing. It was her first encounter with the culture and it totally um -- let's say, it took her to the summit. Once we got talking she couldn't stop! :)

People in the arts are often extremely narcissistic and think they are on the cutting edge of cultural progress, so I suppose it's to be expected that the ideology can find a good foothold there. In my experience, though, we older ladies (like my artist friend) have our feet well planted on the ground. It comes with the territory -- many of us are grandmas and we tend to have a nose for bt.

Goosefoot · 23/12/2019 00:08

The tactic of taking some sort of legal precedent or idea, and presenting it to the public as meaning something quite different than was originally intended, is increasingly being used as a way to create public acquiescence and shut down criticism. It needs to be addressed vocally whenever it happens, even when it's a positive cause, because it sets people up to accept that kind of thing uncritically in other instances.

theflushedzebra · 22/12/2019 23:04

It was also brought in via the back door - with TRAs congratulating themselves that they had managed to get it passed "without anyone throwing a fit in the press" - that is itself gives me the chills. I had no knowledge that this Act of Parliament had been passed at the time - was pregnant/breastfeeding a newborn in 2004. It was put through totally on the quiet - thin end of the wedge. And TRAs knew it, and boasted about it.

OvaHere · 22/12/2019 22:58

Homosexual transsexuals are the people for whom the GRA was introduced

Yes and a big part of it was so they could marry as if they were in an opposite sex relationship because marriage equality hadn't been introduced then and the government of the time was trying to avoid that.

theflushedzebra · 22/12/2019 22:34

Homosexual transsexuals are the people for whom the GRA was introduced - it is on record in Hansard that the GRA was introduced for the "tiny number" of people suffering from severe gender dysphoria, where living in the opposite gender role would be the only thing to ease their suffering. The govt estimated it would be used by around 5000 people - and to date - around 5000 GRCs have been issued.

Seems this was a can of worms - now open. And suddenly - any male not being able to self identify into women's spaces is a human rights violation. And everyone from Julie Bindel to JK Rowling to Emily Maitliss is a hateful nazi terf Hmm

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 22/12/2019 22:29

On Ricky - I'm hoping the praying hands emoji after TWAW means he's being sarcastic.

Caitlin, though, is a huge bloody sell-out. Happy to preach feminism when it can make her some £££ but the minute there are actual, real rights at stake she's as silent as a nun.

And Lucy Mangan, btw, had a guest column in one of the papers today (can't remember which one but think it may have been the MoS) - nary a word was spoken about JK.

Cowards. The lot of them.

theflushedzebra · 22/12/2019 22:28

There's widespread acceptance of genuinely dysphoric homosexual transsexuals (Mn please don't delete me, this is how hsts refer to themselves, even though TRAs berate them as 'truscum' Hmm ) ie. the old school transsexuals - who feminists like Andrea Dworkin accepted all those years ago. More likely to to post OP (therefore no issue of penises in women's spaces - no autogynephiliacs looking to women for validation).

The problem - as identified Wink by Gervais - is self ID - the 'anyone who says they are women ARE women' rhetoric - no gatekeeping, no requirement for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, no safeguarding of women. The "women can have penises too" rhetoric is the problem here. Women do not have penises.

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 22/12/2019 22:24

@Lamahaha I'm a member of a media women's forum also based in the US which is, in your very apt phrasing, 'woker than woke'. It was meant to originally be for women and is now full of blokes not even bothering to use female pronouns and all the sub-groups have changed their names to be "inclusive" (thus either getting rid of the word "women" or adding the LGBT alphabet soup to it).

Language is constantly policed so as to be 'inclusive' - e.g. you're not allowed to start any threads with "Hi ladies". We've also been explicitly told that some women have penises.

America is fucked.

JanesKettle · 22/12/2019 22:24

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breakfastpizza · 22/12/2019 22:18

Ricky has made tweet jokes in the past about trans women and their cock and balls, so he's definitely critical.