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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling - Thread 2

464 replies

MoleSmokes · 21/12/2019 02:03

Thread 1 started by @MsMcWibble here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3772685-JK-Rowling
----
twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1207646162813100033

Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?
#IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill
---
To start off thread 2 - everyone saying the time was right for this to hit the news stands right after the Election was right!

Maya Forstater's Employment Tribunal case is, by virtue of JK Rowling's support, more popular in The Spectator than Boris Johnson by Boris Johnson, The Tories and The Labour Party!

MOST POPULAR in The Spectator

1. In just a few words, JK Rowling has changed the transgender debate (James Kirkup)

  1. Boris Johnson: Perhaps my campaign was ‘clunking’. But sometimes, clunking is what you need (Boris Johnson)
  2. We’ve just had the best decade in human history. Seriously (Matt Ridley)
  3. Keir Starmer looks and sounds middle class precisely because he’s working class (Isabel Hardman)
  4. Let’s make David Lammy Labour’s next leader (Rod Liddle)
  5. A new leader won’t stop the far left’s domination of Labour (Nick Cohen)

www.spectator.co.uk/

JK Rowling - Thread 2
OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
BarbaraStrozzi · 24/12/2019 09:01

I've got PCOS too, Kat. The first time I realised TRAs were appropriating it for their political ends, it mostly made me Confused then Angry. Largely my reaction was "these people are batshit crazy - this is clearly a medical conditio a woman has solely in virtue of having a female reproductive system."

One of my larger foothills, in fact arguably a subsidiary summit on my continuing ascent.

Tocopherol · 24/12/2019 09:00

Yeah, I have seen that particular piece of info copy/pasted in varying states of completeness all over Twitter lately. Never with credit, citation, nope. Posted as if they wrote it. Disappointingly, several science accounts I follow have done the same thing! None work in the field, so are no more qualified to confirm or deny it than I am, but I can't comment with my real Twitter and if I use my anonymous one it will be ignored anyway. Science Twitter is a good thing overall but I've noticed the vast majority don't really like being questioned, or challenged, no matter how good the question is. I've had 2 relatively popular accounts 'splain my own work to me.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 24/12/2019 08:56

The "nice show you have there, would be a shame if something were to happen to it" behaviour from GLAAD described in the article about them attempting to bully Rowling into recanting into recanting is particularly interesting. That's not social justice, mate, that's a protection racket.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 24/12/2019 08:48

Get lost TRAs obviously!

KatvonHostileExtremist · 24/12/2019 08:46

Tocopherol

That screenshot you posted looked like a bastardised version of this:
"Sex is biological and 99.98 percent of humans are either straight up male or female with no ambiguities. It's determined at conception and fertilization, and is observable in every cell, every system, all our hormones, every organ, and in our entire biology. Sex is not assigned, it's observed as a physical, material, and biological fact. Ultimately it's all about the gametes. If you produce sperm you are male. If you produce ova you are female. No human was ever born without the haploid contribution of both male and female gametes.
And as regards intersex, this occurs in about 0.017 percent of humans and every case is a disorder of sexual development of either a male or a female. We have a ton of good data and the DSD categories are well understood genetically. These are the six biological karyotype sex disorders that do not result in immediate death to the fetus:
X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s )
XX – Most common form of female
XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter)
XY – Most common form of male
XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births
"If you are 46, XX, you are female. If you are 45, XO, you are still female, but with Turner syndrome. 47 XXX, 48XXXX and 49XXXXX, aren't a spectrum of femaleness, they are classified as female chromosomal disorders. If you are 46, XY, you are male. If you are 47, XXY, you are male, but with Kleinfelter syndrome. If you are 48, XXYY, you are male, but with XXYY syndrome. 48,XXXY, 49,XXXXY. All are still male. These aren't on a spectrum - they are categorized as male genetic disorders. They aren't considered intersex conditions, but a lot of trans activists like to claim they are.
If someone had trisonomy 21, we don't say they are on a human spectrum of any sort, we classify them as having Down syndrome.
Intersex conditions by themselves can exist in a spectrum, but only in relation to the severity of that specific condition. But even over that spectrum they have clearly defined categories. Androgen insensitivity syndrome is someone who is genetically male, but their reproductive organs don't masculinize. It has 3 categories of severity.
There is no spectrum gradient between male and male with androgen insensitivity syndrome. These are clearly defined categories. There is no spectrum gradient between female and androgen insensitivity syndrome. You are either in the category female or category male with androgen insensitivity syndrome. There is no spectrum gradient between having an intersex condition and not.
If you have all the typical indicators of your sex, you are that sex, you are in that category. If you are born with the number and type of sex chromosomes off from your external genitalia, with unmatching or mixed type of gonads, with ambiguous internal reproductive anatomy; and/or ambiguous external genitalia, then you are in the intersex category. There is NO spectrum gradient or overlap between being typical male and having an intersex condition.
Bottom line: Intersex is a specific set of individual genetic disorders of sexual development - not a third sex or a collection of different sexes.
Gender on the other hand is a set of trivial characteristics associated with the performance of masculine or feminine behaviors. These are entirely cultural constructs and are widely varied culture to culture.
Bottom line is there are two sexes, three orientations, and 7.6 billion genders."

I actually cried the first time I saw them bring PCOS into this. And i can well imagine the pain of people with disorders of sexual development. How DARE they appropriate people's conditions. Makes me so angry.

PCOS brings a whole lot of pain for women, and there's some utter shit on Penis News saying it gives us a biological advantage in sport, so therefore men can compete against women. Lol. Yeah, it's down right insulting and incorrect on so many levels.

There are two biological sexes. It's all about the gametes. Also. Get lost.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 24/12/2019 08:45

Can these ridiculous babies not have a single discussion without it turning into a Maoist struggle session? I'm so tired of this shit.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 24/12/2019 08:44

I’m not sure if this has been posted, there’s not much new information, but I’m vastly indebted to the writer for the wonderful term “wokescolds”. I intend to steal it and use it often.

“If Rowling continues to stand firm against the wokescolds, she may strike a significant blow for freedom of speech.”

Thank you Emily Zanotti.

www.dailywire.com/news/glaad-tried-to-force-jk-rowling-to-apologize-for-transphobic-comments-she-refused?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

Clymene · 24/12/2019 08:30

I don't know if they do share tokens as such but try this:

Read Writers blocked: Even fantasy fiction is now offensive - www.spectator.co.uk/2019/05/writers-blocked-even-fantasy-fiction-is-now-offensive/

Tocopherol · 24/12/2019 08:01

Only if it's reinforced that white characters are oppressing everyone else! #ownvoices!!!

NightLion · 24/12/2019 08:00

Would someone with a share token please post that Spectator article? Cheers

Lamahaha · 24/12/2019 06:26

That article is horrifying! But it is portrayed wrongly, and is misleading. The book was to be published by a Penguin-Random House imprint and the author received a 6-figure advance; but the article says "she" withdrew the book. Only the publisher can withdraw the book at that stage, which is incredible if they have paid six figures for it -- the author would get to keep the advance. And again, "she" would now be publishing it in November. Only the publisher can publish, not the author, and only the publisher can make announcements about the book. The article makes it sound as if the poor little author had self-published and couldn't face the backlash, which might be understandable if true.

But it's actually the publisher who did not stick to its guts and go ahead, and they certainly had the clout and the money to do so. It was now THEIR book, not the author's. I find it disgraceful that they withdrew. Another huge company that caved under pressure; not from TRAs this time but from SJWs. Cowards.

Honestly, the only way to get past these babies throwing their toys out of the pram is to ignore them. I'm gutted that the publisher gave in.

Are black novelists allowed to write about white characters and their lives? Asking for a friend.

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 24/12/2019 00:01

Btw this piece from the Spectator discusses a lot of the YA cultural appropriation stuff and how bonkers it's gotten www.spectator.co.uk/2019/05/writers-blocked-even-fantasy-fiction-is-now-offensive/

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2019 23:36

#ownvoice stuff too - authors can only write characters with their own lived experience, anything else is appropriation

< Dragon disappears in a sad puff of wokery>

iswhois · 23/12/2019 23:34

What a bunch on twats

Can't have been very big fans to begin with if they didn't know that the stairs turned into a big slide to expel any boys sneaking into girls dormitories

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/12/2019 23:23

That's ridiculous. It's a bloody high school! Teach the kids their GCSE and A Level subjects and stop trying to indoctrinate them.

ArranUpsideDown · 23/12/2019 23:22

alarming stories linked to schools because of this now. Woodside High, Tottenham saying “anti TERF” things.

For those who haven't seen the origin of the story:

www.gaystarnews.com/article/one-gay-headteacher-school-preventing-lgbti-bullying/

Tocopherol · 23/12/2019 23:22

Also re; Jake retcons - she clearly did that because of years of being told the books weren't diverse enough. Then nobody was happy with the additions and years of moaning about that followed.

She should have said nothing and just taken a few suggestions on board for future books instead of giving in. There was no way retconning would have worked.
But the "wizards crap on floors and that's canon" thing made me laugh even if it was quite childish and troll-y!

SapphireSeptember · 23/12/2019 23:20

Adding my 2p. I'm part of a LARP community, the events are a magical school loosely based on Hogwarts, so I assume people who spend a fortune to go to a pretend wizard school are huge Potterheads.
A lot of people including the organisers are very woke, and things have panned out exactly as I suspected they would on Facebook with people decrying JKR. I currently feel like the only sane person there (and I wasn't very sane to begin with, hence going to a pretend wizard school.) I'm totally with Jo on this, and with Maya, and I especially hope Maya will be okay.

AutumnRose1 · 23/12/2019 23:17

Prodigal

Elle has screenshots here

twitter.com/elleandback/status/1209202179829051393

Tocopherol · 23/12/2019 23:15

It was not a conversation I thought we'd be having! He's very much the "I have no problem with gays at all but I'm 100% straight, me" type, and he is from a country that isn't gay friendly. It confirmed he is just repeating things at me without engaging in any critical thought at all.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/12/2019 23:06

I'd love to have sat in on the conversation with your woke partner, Tocopherol.

"PCOS is an intersex condition!"

"So I'm not a woman, then? And we're shagging?"

(Observes as bloke backtracks at the speed of light)

NewMumBGentle · 23/12/2019 23:06

I actually think this is quite surprising from her. Normally she's so DESPERATE to be inclusive that she retcons characters, giving them traits or characteristics retrospectively that she didn't include in the books (gay Dumbledore, black Hermione ect).
She's very annoying either way

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/12/2019 23:04

As in the school itself/school authorities saying weird stuff or some of the students, Autumn?

ArranUpsideDown · 23/12/2019 23:03

please ignore everything Eugene Gu says

There was a discussion about him in thread 1.

Unfortunately however, he has >300K followers on Twitter and is skilled at social media. Similarly Prof Alice Roberts has a large following and has similarly odd ideas.

It's notable that the self-identified GC scientists and medics are in short supply on Twitter and other social media platforms. (I'm not entirely surprised by this but it means that there is a very unbalanced public discourse around this topic.)

AutumnRose1 · 23/12/2019 23:01

I hope it’s all right to put this here

But I’ve seen some very alarming stories linked to schools because of this now. Woodside High, Tottenham saying “anti TERF” things. WTAF is going on?