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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling - Thread 2

464 replies

MoleSmokes · 21/12/2019 02:03

Thread 1 started by @MsMcWibble here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3772685-JK-Rowling
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twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1207646162813100033

Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?
#IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill
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To start off thread 2 - everyone saying the time was right for this to hit the news stands right after the Election was right!

Maya Forstater's Employment Tribunal case is, by virtue of JK Rowling's support, more popular in The Spectator than Boris Johnson by Boris Johnson, The Tories and The Labour Party!

MOST POPULAR in The Spectator

1. In just a few words, JK Rowling has changed the transgender debate (James Kirkup)

  1. Boris Johnson: Perhaps my campaign was ‘clunking’. But sometimes, clunking is what you need (Boris Johnson)
  2. We’ve just had the best decade in human history. Seriously (Matt Ridley)
  3. Keir Starmer looks and sounds middle class precisely because he’s working class (Isabel Hardman)
  4. Let’s make David Lammy Labour’s next leader (Rod Liddle)
  5. A new leader won’t stop the far left’s domination of Labour (Nick Cohen)

www.spectator.co.uk/

JK Rowling - Thread 2
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17
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 21/12/2019 20:05

All she did is state that "sex is real" and this is the hoo-ha that has emerged. It's actually unreal.

Remember that Rowling is a writer. The deliberate understatement will have been crafted in full knowledge that a comical overreaction would ensue. She's pretty clever, Jo is.

Kantastic · 21/12/2019 19:53

I don't know if this is the right thread for it but I am hoping that Maya is OK.

There are so many lies being told about her wherever JKR's Tweet is discussed. She's coming in for a lot of the same vitriol directed at Rowling, without Rowling's shield of stratospheric wealth. I just wanted to send her good wishes if she's lurking here and thank her for bringing the case and indirectly making this happen!

BarbaraStrozzi · 21/12/2019 19:45

The "sex is a spectrum" nonsense is irrelevant for two reasons.

  1. it's highly misleading - there's a tiny percentage of people with genuine DSDs against a background of a species that is, like all mammalian species, overwhelmingly sexually dimorphic (though interestingly, in terms of animal species as a whole, not hugely so - which is why different social roles and jobs and so on allotted by sex doesn't actually make much sense).

  2. It's utterly irrelevant to the trans issue. Most trans people (I guess the percentages are in line with the population as a whole) are absolutely standard members of their birth sex, genotypically and phenotypically (as evidenced by the number of late transitioning transwomen who've fathered several children, and transmen having "male" [sic] pregnancies).

YourOpinionIsNoted · 21/12/2019 19:39

I've just sent an email. If nothing else it will give the poor sods wading through a load of "you're erasing me!!! Why do you want trans kids to die?? Waaaa!!" something else to read.

ArabellaDoreenFig · 21/12/2019 19:03

I’ve been waiting for this from Ms Rowling, she knows damn well what a woman is - someone who publishers thought couldn’t sell books. Would love to see a republish of HP with her full name on them. I reckon she has just been biding her time to publicly comment.

Joannne Rowling you are a hero!

Waterandlemonjuice · 21/12/2019 18:40

Contact details forJK Rowling:

www.jkrowling.com/enquiries/

“Jo rarely gives interviews or writes articles, preferring to express herself on twitter. If you have a media enquiry, please contact J.K. Rowling’s PR team at [email protected]”

So it looks like [email protected] is the one to use unless anyone knows otherwise?

I’m going to email anyway, I think she needs an outpouring of love and support to counteract the vitriol.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 21/12/2019 18:38

PS. Thank you, Ricky Gervais. And can you imagine the tsuanmi of invective that would have been levelled at any woman who made the same comments?

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 21/12/2019 18:37

The 'spectrum' argument is one big red herring, IMO.

Biological sex may well exist on a form of spectrum. I'm not a biological scientist. I don't know. (Although judging by Twitter, I wouldn't put too much faith in those who say they are).

Gender, though, does exist as a social construct and its parameters shift with time. It may be that we have no more power to change historically-specific discourses of gender than we do to alter our basic biology, but as a feminist academic, the constricts/stereotypes of gender are social constructs I've spent most of my adult life challenging. As for the intersex/clownfish arguments, I'm surprised to see those who purport to some form of academic background using these to support their absurd pro-trans arguments. Why is it said that exceptions often prove the rule, rather than vice versa?

What is irrefutable, as borne out by a gigantic law of averages and statistics is that: those born female have smaller bodies than men, are generally weaker than men, have less dense muscle-mass than men, have bodies that can be penetrated by men who weaponize their bodies against ours, have less aggressive testosterone in our bodies, ergo are less aggressive than men, are less likely to commit violent crime than men, and by ratio of 98% to 2% are less likely to commit sexual offences than men.

These are all pretty conclusive facts that no amount of 'spectrumming' can take away. Not least, the human race has managed to procreate for hundreds of thousands of years, without apparent confusion, and haven't died out as yet.

TWAW activists are quite possibly using these arguments because all they amount to is a distraction from the key point. That being the safeguarding of women in certain spaces that don't admit men.

It's interesting that even the sex theorist Jonathan Dollimore is critical of queer theory, and was, as far back as 2001.

Cookieflavoredbiscuit · 21/12/2019 18:35

All she did is state that "sex is real" and this is the hoo-ha that has emerged. It's actually unreal.

Isn't it though? They're basically saying that -any woman- anyone who is gender critical should be unemployed. Perhaps in the endgame we will at least be permitted to do empowering sex work.

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 21/12/2019 18:23

The crazy thing is, re-reading her tweet again this morning (keep pinching myself to check it's real!), she doesn't even say what she actually thinks - the only possibly anti-trans thing she has said (apart from standing with Maya of course) is "But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?" - she doesn't even provide an answer to it.

All she did is state that "sex is real" and this is the hoo-ha that has emerged. It's actually unreal.

Btw @Waterandlemonjuice I'm also considering writing a letter of support to her agent. If anyone has their contact details can you PM me?

EwwSprouts · 21/12/2019 18:22

The apologising blue ticks seem oblivious that freedom of expression covers speech as well as presentation.

Igneococcus · 21/12/2019 18:17

deckthehalls
Is that the comment in Spiegel bei Enrico Ippolito?

Siameasy · 21/12/2019 18:14

I love Ricky Gervais now even more that I’ve seen he has a gorgeous Siamese cat with white feet

EndoplasmicReticulum · 21/12/2019 18:09

Horse - yes. See also Professor Alice Roberts.

HorseWithNoBlueHair · 21/12/2019 18:02

I used to like Goldacre, but then I used to like the Guardian.

How times have changed.

EvenSupposing · 21/12/2019 17:48

Exactly that Fitzdotteral

Isbutteracarb · 21/12/2019 17:46

Just popping on to say I joined twitter yesterday to like JK's tweet and follow a whole bunch of people like her and Ricky.

Ditto Grin

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/12/2019 17:46

Yeah, I remember back in the olden days when I was naive and trusting and I was just waiting for Goldacre to talk about it because I assumed he would get to it sooner or later, being a fearless critic of bad science and all.
Tbh though, the fact he hasn't is probably the reason I had forgotten him (I couldn't think which Ben you meant either) - when someone's brand involves a certain kind of integrity and they turn out not to have that integrity after all, you lose interest.

drspouse · 21/12/2019 17:43

@BlackberryViolet I knit too, have just checked Ravelry, all about how awful the UK is, how they always knew she had dreadful politics.

EvenSupposing · 21/12/2019 17:36

Goldacre. That's it.

Plenty of time to get his cat a PhD to piss Gillian McShit-in-a-tub off. None to tweet about this massive attack on scientific thought. Nice work Ben.

theflushedzebra · 21/12/2019 17:23

I'm fairly disgusted with Ben Goldacre and Robin Ince - who have made their living talking about science vs bad science, but who have failed to come out in support of both science and women on this one.

Shouting the mantra "TWAW" at people is really just "how many fingers am I holding up Winston?" - they must see it.

Especially when the ominous "Repeat after us, Transwomen are women" was projected onto London buildings.

Datun · 21/12/2019 17:17

Placemarking

OldCrone · 21/12/2019 17:14

The trans person cannot gain gender recognition until either the spouse consents – or they get divorced.

Since the marriage is between two people who both have rights, the non-transitioning spouse shouldn't be forced into a same-sex marriage without her consent (in nearly all cases the transitioning person is male and the non-transitioning person is female).

shedquarters · 21/12/2019 17:10

Yes high profile people should be speaking out - but more importantly politicians and scientists should stop being such effing cowards and put a stop to this now.

EvenSupposing · 21/12/2019 17:09

Yeah charlie brooker is well overdue. David Mitchell. Ben whotsit - the science guy. Sandi and Noel - gender non-conformist both. Whathsherface who elected herself queen of feminism a while back but seems to have had her mouth sewn shut on this one - How to be a Feminist woman.

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