Forced to share a room with a TW

Tell the organiser that you yourself are trans and ask him to notify the other participants, including the men, that accommodation might be mixed sex depending on availability. No hurt feelings, and everyone knows not to expect single sex accommodation and can decide whether they want to go. Make sure you tell your trans friend that you are trans so he doesn't think it's about him.

pegsworth
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Oh God not the "why aren't you uncomfortable with sharing with lesbians then" argument 🙄 This is going to go the way of all these threads. Yawn.

I suppose my respect for the trans woman's right to self identify trumps that for the bio woman's right to say no

Ah, OK. I, on the other hand, wholeheartedly believe that a woman's right to say "no" to something she is not comfortable with has been ignored for far too long by society, and it is well overdue that we start to respect it. Especially when it comes down to a question of prioritising the rights of a biological male over a biological woman's right to say no - no, that doesn't sit well with me at all.

Can I clarify I didn't misunderstand the statistics (I work in the City ), I'm waiting to see the source so I can understand the research behind it better.

Re the cubicle question - many have inadequate curtains and barriers you could peep through or stick a phone through or under.

charley50 may I know the source of that stat? I'd like to learn more about that research.

pegs “ What does it mean to you to be 'woman', and why is it such a protected status that we are so afraid of someone self identifying as such? ”

It means I’m an adult human female. I’m afraid of self ID because women had to fight for single sex spaces because of men attacking them. Why was it considered such an achievement when we got single sex hospital wards? There are also issues of privacy which is a concern shared by many men.

Re cubicles at work etc, if the sinks are shared, the man who is harassing me can easily follow me to the bathroom.

I’ve no objection if you describe me as being anti men, highly suspicious of men. But accusations of being anti trans are a bit bonkers.

Pegsworth I think you may be misunderstanding the statistics.
In total there will be more attacks by women, because there are relatively few transwomen so if you are attacked it is more likely to have been by a woman than a transwoman. But for any individual the transwoman's likelihood of attacking you is the same as a man's, not a woman's. If you are cool with mixed sleeping areas that's fine, but if you have decided to avoid sleeping in areas with strange men it makes no logical sense at all to be OK with strange transwomen.
You might decide to sacrifice your safety to the tw's feelings and I think a lot of women would because sadly women are brought up to be self abnegatory like that.

@pegsworth - trans women have the same rates of sex offences as other men, so yes, women are sensible to be concerned about sharing a room with them.

Well yes of course soontobe. But the point is that if I’m sharing a room with a trans woman it’s no less risky in terms of assault than sharing a room with a man. Sharing a room with a woman is OTOH almost no risk.

NAMALT and NATWALT of course - yet male violence exists and that’s why female spaces are still important and need protection.

But why do we exclude males who identify as males but not those who identify as females given that they on average act and behave and offend like males? Like isn't that mean to men in general, like making out they are all potential rapists?

I can understand totally sex based separation, I totally don't get gender based separation

"soontobe I suppose my respect for the trans woman's right to self identify trumps that for the bio woman's right to say no. "

WOW!!!

No woman should suddenly be confronted with having to share a room with an unknown adult male.

Yes. End of.

FWR thank you for that explanation. So I suppose I started where you are now, and after much exploration went the other way. I came to the conclusion that a lot of my initial discomfort was from the status quo being what it is, and my never having had to think about this issue before.

I understand a bit more why people might feel uncomfortable about sharing a bedroom. (I would prefer not sharing with a stranger, full stop!) but even bathrooms with cubicles? Changing rooms with cubicles? I've read feminist threads here where people are incandescent with rage that M&S now offers unisex changing rooms.

A challenge to the 'male gaze' point - what about lesbians? Are we uncomfortable that they might look inappropriately at bio women too?

the likelihood of a trans woman attacking you is no higher than that of a bio woman attacking you.
Do you have the source for this statement? Given that the number of trans women is far far lower than the number of women, I would expect the number of trans women attacking women is extremely low compared to woman on woman assaults.

pegsworth thanks for engaging calmly. I used to feel how you do. But then I read what women were saying who have very different experiences with men. For example women who have experienced domestic abuse. Stranger Rape. Severe sexual harassment. The fact that I have not experienced these things means that my opinion on whether someone should be OK with sleeping in a room with a stranger male is rather irrelevant. The fact that a large proportion of women have experienced male violence means that in any given group of 4 women, likely one of them has. In which case, her experience is the one that matters when deciding if a male body is OK in a private space not mine.

Also there is just ya know, basic desire for privacy from the opposite sex. I don’t care about seeing female friends naked, or even stranger women but I would be horribly embarrassed for a male person to do so. I don’t agree with the response “well no one should ever be naked!” I think women only communal spaces where we are nude (optional of course) help to normalize body shame which is a massive problem for women. I would not be comfortable with a penis there.

soontobe I suppose my respect for the trans woman's right to self identify trumps that for the bio woman's right to say no. Particularly as I'm still not hearing a cogent argument for saying no, as the point about attacks doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

What does it mean to you to be 'woman', and why is it such a protected status that we are so afraid of someone self identifying as such?

And a final genuine question - are rad fems as bothered by trans men sharing men's spaces?

Havelock's post makes sense to me. I was groped through my sleeping bag while I was trying to sleep on a North Sea ferry and hence would be wary of sharing a sleeping area with strange men. Not trauma, more risk assessment.
I would be fine with men I know (with a few exceptions) and whether they are trans or not wouldn't make any difference - as it happens the transwomen I know personally (as opposed to the bonkers ones online) wouldn't bother me. But the risk assessment would apply to transwomen the same as to men who identify as men, because that's reality.

I've been deleted already, but just for everyone here on this thread, do not post anything that can be used as a screenshot

@pegsworth
a trans woman to me is someone who identifies as a woman. I respect that person's right to self-identify as such, and I don't feel the need to check their genitals or do a DNA test to decide whether they are woman enough.

Do you also respect the right of a female to not want to share a room with a trans woman?
To me, a trans woman is someone who is trying to have the outward appearance of a woman, whether by wearing traditional women's clothing or by having surgery and anything else between these two extremes. They are not, and never can be, an actual woman. This is determined purely by DNA. Similarly, taking testosterone or having surgery to give me an appendage that looks like a penis does not turn me into a man.

OP, in this situation, I would try to arrange my own accommodation. I'd explain that I wasn't comfortable with sharing accommodation.

havelock I'm really sorry you've had that experience. That sounds awful. But I would suggest that it is that experience which needs resolving, rather than that trans women won't have the right to be in female spaces.

If you look at the statistics, the likelihood of a trans woman attacking you is no higher than that of a bio woman attacking you. I look at it from the trans woman's perspective - how extremely hurtful it must be to always be regarded with suspicion, like someone who's pretending to be a woman in order to sneak into female spaces and rape people. People used to regard gay people with the same suspicion, particularly hetero men towards gay men. And as society has progressed, we now recognise that way of thinking to what outdated and discriminatory. It's a matter of time before the same position is adopted universally with regards to trans people.

I think you should warn the women privately.

@pegsworth I can assure you that as a person who had to fight off a rapist in a hotel room I would definitely care about this - if I knew the TW well I'd probably be ok with it, but if I was suddenly told I'd be sharing with a strange biologically male person I'd completely panic. No, I don't think most males are rapists, but my stupid traumatised brain doesn't know which ones are, and since TW display the same offending patterns as other males I think I'm fully justified in my position.

No woman should suddenly be confronted with having to share a room with an unknown adult male.

OP, how do you know the other two women you're sharing with aren't transwomen anyway? Especially likely give it's a typically male-dominated activity.

I don't see how anyone would blame you for the situation as you didn't organise the room booking.

It's nothing to do with transphobia. Would you be happy getting undressed in front of and sharing a room with someone like Alex Drummond just as you would with female friends?

Good question. Pegsworth will be back to answer it, I'm sure.