Did you grow up in 70s/80s?

You'd be very welcome. I've had a lot of discussions with people about the differences between the English and Scots school systems as I've experience of both which not everyone does.

A lot of Scots are saying the Scots system is deteriorating in quality and they're not necessarily wrong BUT as it was much better than the English system previously anyway it's still better than the English system in my opinion.

And I say that as someone educated in England.

But I had parents who were educated under the Scots system and who were frequently shocked at how behind the English system was and there are many family anecdotes of things like English system teachers complaining because my siblings and I were often ahead on things - eg we could all read at a basic level before starting school for my parents this was the norm and they were very shocked at being "told off" for having taught us to read - and count and do simple arithmetic - so young.

We weren't "hothoused" it was entirely normal as far as they were concerned to read with us, practice alphabet and letter sounds, so counting and adding and subtracting songs and games before starting school, because in their experiencat that time and previously it was how it worked. You prepared your children for starting school.

Then later at high school stage we ended up in trouble for questioning, not blindly accepting England centric info as fact.

Their manner with us was "nobody knows everything not even teachers, there's nothing wrong with admitting a lack of knowledge. But if you don't know something you don't remain ignorant you make the effort to find out"

So even when we were little and asking those annoying things kids do like "why is the sky blue?" Or "why does the sea have waves?" Whichever parent we asked if they didn't know they'd take the time with us going through reference books, going to the library and finding the answers together.

What was particularly insulting and frustrating was history as taught in english schools - especially as catholic Scots of Irish descent!

There's STILL appallingly discriminatory and plain inaccurate nonsense being taught regarding the colonisation of Ireland, the division of Ireland, how Scots have been treated by the English... it's disgusting really. And I suspect under this govt things like that will get worse!

It's also very interesting that there's NO equivalent subject to modern studies taught in England and wales.
I think something similar is taught in Northern Ireland.

It's an interesting and unusual subject for those used to the English school system.

Within that subject pupils are taught things like how our govt works from our voting system to how legislation is made, also elements of sociology, criminology, citizenship, rights and responsibilities, international politics...
it's a fantastic subject but I can completely understand why the English govt don't want it taught in England because the electorate would be a damn site more informed than they currently are!

Many of the questions I see crop up on mn on politics like "what is proportional representation?" Or "why are sentencing regulations as they are?" Are addressed and discussed as part of this subject.

During indyref when there was much discussion between English and Scots about 16 year olds being allowed to vote myself and other Scots on various online forum told the English about this subject and a lot of them said they wished it were taught in English schools.

But when even basics in subjects like history aren't being taught correctly or even arguably in simply a more balanced way - you have to wonder what the agenda is!

Clearly it's in governments interests to have n.electorat3 who.dont question and who have lost the ability to think.for themselves.

Absolutely agree with this. Thankfully it's slightly less the case in Scotland for now

Bernays rules now. Consumerism has taken over, and there is no hope with the person we've just elected. He may surprise me, but I doubt it. Glad to hear Scotland is still less easy to fool, I'm looking into moving up there.

I dont blame them for being pessimistic but do wonder if somehow even the media whipping up the climate catastrophe isn't a control mechanism.

There's always been catastrophe on the horizon. We were all about to be vapourised in a nuclear war at any second when I was growing up. I'm not sure that younger people seeing conditions worsening as inevitable is so much whipped up by the mainstream media as a consequence of social media where people tend to sit in their little echo chambers egging each other on to more and more extreme positions.

I don't think it is possible to speak of generational divides while ignoring the single greatest difference between our childhood and that of people who grew up with the internet.

Again from the perspective of someone slightly older, from mid way thought the 60s and the 70s (which did get really grim) there was a sense that somehow things could change. But for me the 80s were when things started to clamp down and there was a big swing back to a more conformist way of life, through highly promoted advertising that endless consumerism was the purpose and aim of life.

Young people now talk as though every thing is only going to get worse. And I dont know why as obviously I dont receive the external messages in the same way as they do.

I dont blame them for being pessimistic but do wonder if somehow even the media whipping up the climate catastrophe isn't a control mechanism.

Because when you look back and remember / think about the generation who survived WWI and then had to live through a depression. Or those who lived through WWII, rationing and so on.

Just by changing their consumerist life style and persuading family to do the same would be a sort of rebellion. Instead we have this need to get people to totally accept what they say whether its about climate change or sex and gender being the same thing. No sense of positive proactivism. Everthing is reduced down to individual feelings, not a collective purpose.

Seems like divide and rule to me.

Clearly it's in governments interests to have n.electorat3 who.dont question and who have lost the ability to think.for themselves.

Absolutely agree with this. Thankfully it's slightly less the case in Scotland for now

I see a lack.of critical thinking as a symptom of the ultra prescriptive education that our children.have been subjected to.

Children aren't taught to question or to think anymore. They are taught to pass tests and exams. Clearly it's in governments interests to have n.electorat3 who.dont question and who have lost the ability to think.for themselves.

@MarielVanArkleStinks can totally relate to your post as witnessed by myself and what I’m hearing from my old lecturers and a few friends who are lecturers.

We had a few lecturers with a sense of humour/fun/provocation and even when they deliberately made almost offensive statements/arguments in seminars the younger students would sit there silent - shocked but silent. Whereas myself and other mature students would either laugh, bite (if we were too slow on uptake when it was something more subtle) or plain argue back. In coffee breaks/pub meet ups afterwards the younger ones would call us “brave” etc when it was perfectly normal to us, I’ve been a student 3 times, once at “6th form” college, and twice at uni and I’ve definitely noticed the decline in students confidence in arguing back and willingness to engage in debate, critical thinking and actual learning that doesn’t simply involve learning by rote

“and the growth of thought police disturbs me.” Definitely!

“As a teen in school uniform men would kerb crawl us, and leer at us and make really sexualised comments to us. As a young woman, men spiked our drinks, told us to 'cheer up', grope us in pubs and all in all treat us like meat” what makes you think that isn’t still the case now? My dd and I have discussed the harassment and assaults girls & women experience from a young age many times - things are sadly no better now than they were then, indeed in some ways they’re worse as her generation can’t even escape at home as they’re bombarded by comments and attacks online too. At least we didn’t have that constant bombardment.

1959. I remember taking one of my boyfriends home when I was 17. My mum said afterwards, 'does it not feel a bit weird when your fella has shiner, longer hair and is prettier than all the girls'.

... and you were super-high maintenance if you wore foundation. I went to a normal school, with girls interested in fashion and make up, but it was unheard of for anyone to get their legs waxed, let alone our bikini lines (older women did, but we just shaved our legs with our dads' Bics). Boys had never seen porn, other than perhaps an illicit Playboy, so had no weird expectations about pornified bodies, or grim sexual practices.

1970. It wasn't just the adults. Girls weren't pinkified. Pink was for (girl) babies, and optional even then. Girls' stuff didn't look much different from boys' stuff. My first bike, which was a girl's one, was yellow and blue. And there was none of the princess crap aimed at girls.

Yes, there was tonnes of sexism in reality, but at least we aspired to something better.

I was born in ‘64. In my youth I was a very out there goth: think Souxie Sioux. I used to go around in a charity shop wedding dress dyed black All the guys in my circle were very flamboyant in their look.

Anyway, I’m very gender critical. Wear what you like. Fuck who you like (consenting adults only) but biology is biology.

I recently brought down a box of old photos from the loft with the Christmas decorations. My boyfriend of the time had bleached blonde hair and full make up; foundation, eyeshadow, eyeliner (lots), purple blush, black lipstick. My grown up daughters were quite shocked. I’ve told them I used to know a lot of guys who broke gender norms but they never really took it in. I think they understand my position and argument a bit more now.

SecondaryBurnzz I think you can have freedoms in some respects and not others.

I can appreciate the silly fashions, music tribes, relative lack of adult interference that I grew up with in the 80s while still recognising them for the vastly more violent time they were than now, still remembering the mass unemployment, the run down housing, the dirty needles and so forth.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the past was better in all respects, just that sexist stereotypes were less strictly imposed than they are now. I'd say there's good evidence for that in children's clothes and toys of the era as well as the music/fashion scenes.

See I feel furious that I wash brain washed in the 70’s &80’s regarding the role of women and their place in society, I had no female role models to teach me anything different but I know I blooded hated the “norm”.

I remember feeling a deep deep disgust and utter outrage from a very young age in the 70’s at anything racist, I felt it to be wrong within my guts but again had no role model to discuss this with..it was the “norm” again.

I feel that the women in my family were in a position to stand up and speak out, to encourage and endorse feminism but they did not. They were strong, capable but downtrodden women who just went along with the tide.
Now I feel completely inept and without a voice because of my upbringing and that makes me fucking furious.

I was a teenager in the 70's. I remember it as a much more innocent time . I loved the 70's. I didn't like the 80's or 90's much. Clothes, music, the sense of possibilities and excitement. TV was better, I loved listening to the Top 40 on the radio every week, going to school discos, wearing Rimmel make up etc. Talking to my friends on the phone (the landline) making plans. Looking forward to going into town at the weekend to go shopping. Films in the cinema seemed great. Saturday Night Fever, The Deerhunter, so many films came out then that seemed like a breath of fresh air. It's all been downhill for me since then. Life now is just bland and very dull. All the music is formulaic drivel. Clothes are poorly made and don't last. Tv is so bad it isn't worth bothering with. The sense of hope has just gone. Eating out is much better though and so is food generally. Although I did love Vesta curries.

I was born in 66 and loved men in eyeliner. My top 3 were Adam Ant, Marc Almond and Boy George.

My daughter is into the undergroiund music system and they seem fairly gender bendery but not gender identifarians.

she has a love for yunglud who oft wears a dress and never goes out without eyeliner. Man though

I found the 70s to be a horrible time actually, and my childhood was pretty nice. As a teen in school uniform men would kerb crawl us, and leer at us and make really sexualised comments to us. As a young woman, men spiked our drinks, told us to 'cheer up', grope us in pubs and all in all treat us like meat. But that was the time when Benny Hill was main stream TV. I felt like prey actually, and because we were out on our own such a lot (that freedom everyone always harks back to) I always felt a bit scared.

At secondary school in the 70s, you could not contradict the word of an adult. You could be accused of something you did not do, and could not even mention the evidence that proved it. It's not so different from the corporal punishment scene in Kes where Billy gets whacked when he's been sent to the Head with a message, and knows there is no point protesting.

And of course it was massively corrupt. It was the world in which Chris Woodhead could fuck his sixth formers in the back of his van outside the school gates and everybody had to look the other way because all he had to do was deny it. Children always lied about such things, it was asserted, but to even contemplate the possibility that adults might lie was an "Appalling Vista."

I wonder if part of the reason young people aren't that interested in experimenting with fashion is that they see it as kind of compromised, at least the ones who might want to do something different?

Every trend has been corporatised, punk, grunge, etc. How can you be authentically rebellious with clothing now? The fashion industry is increasingly vapid not to mention a consumerist disaster.

Interesting thread. 70s born here. Britain is much more conformist now I think. MarielVanArkleStinks, I do not think youngsters are encouraged to question in education now. One must not be critical in any way of one's superiors in age and hierarchy which are always present in schools: it is not "positive" and after all "experts" always know best. Schools are clamping down. In some ways it's good. In some ways we're losing, and the growth of thought police disturbs me.

I loved beards when I was a teenager in the 70s and 80s (I used to swoon over the picture of Lindsey Buckingham on the back of 'Rumours') so was delighted to see their return recently. First one I noticed was on Patrick Grant on Sewing Bee (swoon) and now my DH sports one. He lets me comb it and oil it 😍

As I brought up beards can I just say the fact I find beards odder on men than make up has nothing to do with 'disdain'.

I simply grew up at a time when it was rare for men to have beards (moustaches were a different matter) and like everyone else am a product of my environment.

I also find baggy shorts on men odd having grown up with short shorts.

Late 80s so just into my 30s. My parents loved what is now classic rock and passed that onto me, lots of Queen. But I love 80s music in general so am an oddity.
As a youth I did dress alternatively so saw a slightly more diverse range i.e. lo g hair and eyeliner on men. In general though, the boys and girls looked the same.
Long straightened hair, jeans and nice top
Short hair with too much product, t shirts and jeans.

I dont think anyone who has commented about more freedom in dress back in the 70s etc., had said it was a better time. Most have referred to the entrenched sexism and racism.

It was / is about the fact that it was possible for men to wear make up / "female" clothes and it not be thought to be anything to do with gender identity or wanting to change your sex.

And I pointed out in my post that this did mostly happen in cities rather than rural areas. I can remember going out with a group of friends who looked sort of hippieish (yes I am that old) and a local pub refusing to serve us! But then they might have had to put up with new age hippies invading their area and trying to tell the local community that they were living inthe wrong way and should join their commune of rubbish tents and broken down caravans, and sit by smokey fires.

And as had already been said clothes are some sort of a statement for each generation (ie the hair dye that many of us mighthave thought why not, is now such a symbol of wokeishness many dont do it). So for me the beat generation were the rule breakers with their almost androgenous style, but I thought their music quaint and old fashioned. But when I listen to it know appreciate that they were being overtly political and obviously influenced 60s folk and political protest songs.

I miss not having a radio station I could rely on to let me hear new music and play the odd old favourite. They seem to now divide up into either all oldies, or a particular strand of current music.

students ... frustrated that they were somehow nervous of questioning what they were being taught, scared to offend lecturers for fear of a bad grade - yet good educators welcome challenge and new ideas and want their students to think for themselves not learn by rote!

I'm a lecturer. And I agree. The most important principles of learning in this environment are those of critical thinking. I had some fantastic, constructive arguments with my students as a T.A. some years ago, but with every intake they seem more reluctant to challenge what they see as received wisdom. I have to actively encourage them to directly challenge me in seminars - which it takes them some weeks/months to come to grips with - and to do the same in essays. I've nearly worn out the phrase: 'I want to hear what YOU think, not to have my own ideas parroted back at me!'

It takes a lot of encouragement to bring them out of their shells. As recently as a decade ago, I didn't need to say this.

I was a Goth (Gen X). I loved the sisters, Bowie, and, needless to say, 80s Goth. My mum (Boomer) was a fan of Dylan, The Doors and the Stones, and that has stayed with me always although the Doors remain near the top of my list as one of my favourite bands ever. Mine was a classical and rock family but my Dad let the side down - he liked ELO.

But ... there was no Rammstein back then.

I still go to Download. Even though I could probably pass as somebody's granny