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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish GRA draft legislation

89 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/12/2019 22:58

According to Shirley Anne Somerville (MSP) on twitter twitter.com/WG_Scotland/status/1206322648206233600?s=19 the draft GRA bill will be out next week.

Women and Girls in Scotland have done some tweeting about the form the consultation is likely to take and they are hoping to release some guidance next year.

Definitely one to keep an eye on, and submit responses too. Even though this is Scottish legislation you can be sure that Westminster will be watching closely.

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NonnyMouse1337 · 18/12/2019 08:08

There is no need for agencies to specifically point to any member of staff as trans.
Every woman who uses their service should be asked as part of their initial registration form whether they are comfortable if their intimate care was handled by a staff who is of the opposite sex or trans. (It is important to highlight opposite sex) If a woman ticks No, then the responsibility is on the agency to ensure she is never assigned a trans person for her intimate care.
And this requirement can always be modified at any point; so if a woman initially thinks she is ok with it but a few months down the line decides she is not, or vice versa, she should be able to phone up management and get it changed. No one needs to know nor care if there are any trans individuals. Organisations just don't want to put in the effort to ensure women feel comfortable and safe when using their services.

hoorayforharoldlloyd · 18/12/2019 07:37

How will people needing intimate care be able to specify that they want to be cared for by someone of the same sex?

A friend of mine currently uses personal care. She has had a transwoman once and was aware she was booking a transwoman. She discussed this issue with the carer, who felt that it was wrong that the agency would inform possible bookers that she was trans. In which case, you either have vulnerable women having clearly natal men turning up on their doorstep or being lied to.

To give you an idea of the vulnerability, my friend uses personal care for toileting and has the care worker live in her house for 2 weeks at a time. She can't get into her wheelchair or leave the house without support. Where is her dignity, choice, safety? Where is her validation?

ElluesPichulobu · 18/12/2019 07:22

we need women from countries where self- ID is already law completing the consultation to say that yes there are already problems. women who are self- excluding from formerly single-sex services and opportunities, or who are avoiding health care screenings for example, due to them being no longer safe. statistics on these women are not collected so there will be no evidence of these problems except the testimony of the individual.

NonnyMouse1337 · 18/12/2019 06:54

Another thread about Times article on the Scottish consultation.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3771664--No-evidence-that-men-are-using-trans-identity-for-sexual-violence

NoCisAllWoman · 18/12/2019 00:17

We've been told by the Guardian article that "cis women's rights will not be diminished." Why thank you so very much Angry. Guess we should all just calm down and be nice.

PlayYouLikeAShark · 17/12/2019 23:53

The previous consultation was open, as is this one. It's important that anyone who wants to, can submit a response, and in particular, those in countries that already have gender self ID & have felt the impact already. For anyone reading this thread, it's really, really important that women respond, to help build the evidence base that underpins the ongoing need for female only provision/spaces/services, highlighting how mix sex provision impacts women's ability to participate fully in public life. This isn't just restricted to Scotland, so everyone who has an interest in this, and wants to speak up - this is the opportunity to do so.

stumbledin · 17/12/2019 23:48

Someone has posted on facebook the link to the online consultation process and pointed out that the form includes a section that asks if you are from Scotland / the rest of the uk / the rest of the world (which is very global of them). consult.gov.scot/family-law/gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill/

I suspect response from those outside the UK will be disregarded unless it is a "known" group or probably a trans activist group from some other country with "evidence" that trans rights do not erase women's rights.

The real problem is that so many women service providers in Scotland dont seem to think that trans rights are in any way a problem for them. These groups opinions will far outweigh those from groups outside of Scotland

theunknownknown · 17/12/2019 22:45

thank you Holy
I'll keep an eye on this thread and submit a response nearer the deadline

OhHolyJesus · 17/12/2019 19:54

I think so theunknown the LGB Alliance is forming a response as I'm sure other women's groups will do so too. We should all share to have many, many responses sent in.

Posting as a reminder, this is from Feb 2018, strange to read this now in a way as it's almost a year ago...

womansplaceuk.org/response-to-scottish-review-of-the-gra/

theunknownknown · 17/12/2019 19:37

can women outside of Scotland submit a response?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/12/2019 18:04

In case it's behind a paywall for other people too..

archive.li/jR8bj

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RedToothBrush · 17/12/2019 17:26

Has anyone linked to this?

www.heraldscotland.com/news/18106522.minister-admits-trans-rights-reforms-may-gone-far-consultation-launched-gender/
Minister admits some trans rights reforms may have gone too far, as consultation launched on gender

CharlieParley · 17/12/2019 16:48

If you have any knowledge at all as to how governments are lobbied on self-id, Purcell's words epitomize the issue of unintended consequences of this policy.

“The law that was enacted in 2015 did not envisage this situation, and it puts the Prison Service and the courts in a difficult position because, obviously, if somebody is self-declaring that they have to be recognised, then they have to be dealt with on that basis, even though physically, they have not have made the [physical] transformation.

I don’t think the legislation envisaged the ability of transgender people to be able to self-declare; and it didn’t foresee the problems it would cause if a transgender, self-declared person was held in a mixed prison,” he said.

Let that sink in: the self-id law did not envisage a male actually self-identifying self-identifying and thus gain access to female only facilities.

How is this possible?

We know from the published literature from the last consultation as well as FOIs that what trans rights lobbyists claim is that self-id will help people who identify as trans who are very vulnerable and very much discriminated against.

This is of course a reference to the transsexuals for whom the original GRA was written. We know - for instance from the training the Glasgow Life employees received - that they are being told that no one pre-op who is after all so vulnerable and distressed because they identify as trans would ever strip naked in front of either sex as they feel so uncomfortable with their bodies etc. (Which we know does not actually apply to the majority of those who push for self-id.)

So the poor Irish prison service now has to deal with the fallout from the government being sold a pup. And Irish lawmakers didn't just fall for the narrative, they also didn't think to dig a little deeper into the population seeking to self-identify or think critically about the needs and rights of women, so now services and organisations have to deal with the true face of self-id - the obvious male, completely unadulterated, equipped with a fully functional male reproductive system, who may or may not express his feminine side by wearing dresses etc.

It took four years for this to come to the fore, so the Scottish Government saying there's no evidence* about laws being abused that were enacted less than five years ago is not just disingenuous, it is downright dishonest if that statement isn't accompanied by a disclaimer taking this vital fact into account.

*There is evidence though from all countries and territories that have enacted self-id laws and/or adopted self-id policies in practice.

From Denmark, Norway, US states with self-id, Canada, Ireland, Spain, Scotland, Mexico...

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 17/12/2019 16:34

The Scottish Government is of the view that there is lack of evidence that including trans women in women-only services and spaces has negative impacts.

Um, Karen White? I mean there are lots more, but how can they write this? Karen White alone means this flatly isn't true.

CharlieParley · 17/12/2019 16:08

As for no awareness of problems, that's due to wilful ignorance on the part of the Scottish Government. A great many organisations have been trying to alert them, but when those who ought to be listening have their fingers firmly stuck in their ears singing

la la la la bigot la la la la la transphobe la la la right wing la la dinosaurs la la la la

then, no, you won't be aware.

Here is an article from October 2019 featuring Robert Purcell, chair of the Law Society Criminal Law Committee in Ireland, about problems emerging with the Irish self-id system.

CharlieParley · 17/12/2019 15:58

For Women Scotland have published a statement on the draft bill (see screenshot) and are holding a public meeting on the draft bill consultation on 16 January next year.

Tickets are available here

I hope to see you there!

Scottish GRA draft legislation
charlestonchaplin · 17/12/2019 15:58

I’m sure many ‘minor’ sexual assaults are not reported. The hassle of reporting to the police and the low probability of the offender being caught (or the perception that this is the case) probably mean women often don’t bother. Also, Prion has explained how it will take time for predators to learn of the new laws and start taking advantage of them, so it will take some time for cases and patterns of offending to emerge.

Kilbranan · 17/12/2019 15:43

Agree derry and for something fairly innocuous as well

SidJS · 17/12/2019 15:12

‘’There is no evidence from overseas which the Scottish Government is aware of which would suggest that moving to a statutory declaration-based system for obtaining legal gender recognition would impact adversely on the rights of women.‘’

The ‘is aware’ in the above is the clear get out clause. There is - they are just not aware of it. Two different things.

I know we have the - it’ll never happen thread -plentiful with predictable examples of perverts being perverts in women’s only spaces.

However is there a thread, website etc which specifically compares incidence in sex based crimes / voyuerism / harassment etc in women’s only spaces overseas pre and post self ID which we can feedback.

What are the key countries? Canada, Ireland, Malta...

What about the changes to statistical data which we need to plan for society

  • I.e females now counted as rapists Yes - that good old woman on woman crime- although I can’t, but then I’m an old fashioned woman - the non penised type.

There must be loads problems. Are they not being reported?

OvaHere · 17/12/2019 15:04

Yes Derry I commented as such on another thread.

DerryGirl1212 · 17/12/2019 15:00

Is anyone else finding it VERY strange that Wings Over Scotland was banned from Twitter the day of this consultation being released?

Wings had a large Twitter following especially in Scotland, is reliably GC and would undoubtedly have alerted his followers to this.

He got reported all the time by TRAs to no avail previously, and didn't break any Twitter rules in the Tweet he got banned for.

I am genuinely not much of a conspiracy theorist, but I'm finding it weird.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/12/2019 14:55

Also, as many others have said. How will single sex spaces work. If a transwoman turns up at a woman's shelter, and they turn them away due to sex based exemptions, but the transwoman say they are a woman. What then?

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/12/2019 14:52

One of the things for me is that laws have to be as specific as possible. This legislation is going to make making a false declaration a criminal offence. How do they intend to tell if a declaration is false. (See also living as opposite gender for 3 months).

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user1471451327 · 17/12/2019 14:47

Please everyone outline their comments and concerns about this proposal (with reference to any evidence to date) as a number of interested lawyers will be considering the proposals over the next month; and will use the concerns raised to formulate a collective response

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 17/12/2019 13:29

Placemarking for later.

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