Douglas Murray on intolerant politics

I have noticed a change in my lifetime and it's very identity politics-y and it's all on the internet. It is great that with social media you can find people you can relate with and who understand what you're going through. But I have this sense of unease about it too.
The scary thing about the internet is not that you can meet people exactly like you, but that you can exclude people who aren't exactly like you. Broad churches like workplaces are now less influential for young people working gig jobs. School and uni is stratified. Going out is too expensive for many young people. At what point does a woke young thing ever get influenced by anyone outside their bubble?

I am going to watch/listen to recs here, thank you.

How does an ordinary Jane put the boot into all the identity politics shit?

we now have to call a “gender critical “ feminist

This really gets me.
Anyone who has misgivings about the new wave of gender consciousness or concerns about numbers of children desiring sex change are radical feminists, terfs or at least feminists- why can I not just be a person who is concerned, a bog standard human-being, Joe Bloggs, woman in the street, it's pure manipulation of speech and vocabulary. Making a normal statement sound angry or argumentative.

the young, seem to be encouraged to separate themselves and cling to an ethnic identity as if it entirely defines them

I have that same feeling regards to young people. Not just with ethnicity. I am autistic and I also have a fairly rare genetic disease. I have noticed a change in my lifetime and it's very identity politics-y and it's all on the internet. It is great that with social media you can find people you can relate with and who understand what you're going through. But I have this sense of unease about it too. People seem to be putting their various "identity" attributes at the front and foremost of everything. I wonder how much internet profiling for advertising and marketing purposes has to do with it.

If Labour had had this sort of conversation at the conference maybe they wouldn't have lost the Red Wall.

Sadly, it's looking entirely unlikely they're intending to have it even now.

Yes ProdigalKitten everyone should see Die Fettenjahre Sind Vorbei (The Edukators). I saw it when it came out and I understood it as a reflection on die Wende, and also a bit of Oststalgie but now you raise it - eerily predictive

There’s a really interesting Free Thinking programme on Radio 3 - you can get it on the BBC Radio app the (awful) Sounds.

It features Douglas Murray and Bea Campbell and Maya ? (Ach didn’t catch her last name). It’s very interesting and robust. I found myself agreeing and disagreeing with all 3 speakers at various points.

I think Bea Campbell is fabulous - I’ve rather her stuff for years ( her voice was a lifeline to the North when I was exiled in Sydney for a few years - she had a regular gig on Philip Adams’ late night highly intelligent radio programme on the ABC).

She’s always been a really tough and intersectional feminist re class and sex - she maintains this approach without going in for po-mo relativism, while being aware of the constructed ness of much of our identity politics. A complex position which she makes clear and accessible.

She’s fabulous and has been what we now have to call a “gender critical “ feminist (it’s just basic feminism as far as I’m concerned) for yonks.

If Labour had had this sort of conversation at the conference maybe they wouldn't have lost the Red Wall.

It's incredible reading this thread, it is one of the best I've read on Mumsnet.

IfNot “ Now, in the small towns in the North where I grew up, I feel like there's more division than assimilation, not with people 40+ but their children, the young, seem to be encouraged to separate themselves and cling to an ethnic identity as if it entirely defines them.”

It’s the same in London and it horrifies me. And why would they want to do that?

I’ve just read Girl Woman Other by Bernardine Evaristo and one of the things that doesn’t quite ring true to me is that the hip, politically engaged daughter of a black lesbian mother doesn’t identify as black or mixed race at university. I thought of course she would. You identify as whatever you can. It’s become a currency. Hence Kate Winslet identifying as working class because as a child her family had a car that kept breaking down and went on holiday to Cornwall not Florida.

I think integration is important.
It used to be accepted that when you move to a new country you try to fit in, adopt the customs to some extent, learn the language, get involved. Many children were given a name from their heritage AND a British name (my parents were) so ethnic traditions were still kept and practised but as far as the wider community people blended more.
Now, in the small towns in the North where I grew up, I feel like there's more division than assimilation, not with people 40+ but their children, the young, seem to be encouraged to separate themselves and cling to an ethnic identity as if it entirely defines them.

Harriet “I know people don't like "I don't see colour" and I understand why, but it seemed to me that that's how things were headed at least in my area, and that it was a good thing.”

Same here.

I know people don't like "I don't see colour" and I understand why, but it seemed to me that that's how things were headed at least in my area, and that it was a good thing.

Only recently have I realised how ‘diverse’ people were when I was growing up. Didn’t notice at the time, it was just normal.

I grew up in Newham, east London. I know in the 70s and early 80s my mum experienced some racism there but I think late 80s onwards it changed and I couldn't have imagined racism would be a thing now because we all seemed to get along just fine. I genuinely thought it would die out. I know people don't like "I don't see colour" and I understand why, but it seemed to me that that's how things were headed at least in my area, and that it was a good thing.

We had an influx of "anywheres" after the Olympics happened and things were rejuvenated and expensive homes were built because of the easy commute to Canary Wharf and central London. That was the biggest and worst change imo because it feels now there's a clear divide whereas before there was integration. The anywheres Vs somewheres makes perfect sense. It's given me a new perspective on things. I've really enjoyed reading this thread.

Not the cooking as such, but three very diverse young Britons pursuing their ambitions. getting on with each other, and not expecting special treatment. That's the country I want my children to belong to!

need I don’t watch cooking shows, no interest whatsoever.

Autumn Rose, I really recommend watch the final episode of Masterchef The Professionals on catch up.

Three extremely talented and determined young people. One the daughter of an upper middle class farmer, another one of 14 (?) children of a single mother from somewhere like the Congo, and the third, the persistent truant son of a binman from Birmingham.

All really inspiring, and no special pleading. The result seemed based on merit.

I miss integration so much.

"There is often a high degree of wilful segregation in areas of great ethnic and cultural diversity. Once transplanted into a foreign host culture there seems to be a desire to hold onto and define, very strongly, one's native culture. 'Identity' mostly depends, very much, on difference and on separation."

This makes perfect sense to me, and seems a natural reaction to the upheaval of leaving the security of one's own culture/nation/language (notwithstanding the issues and problems it might have) and moving to a new, 'alien' culture. It's normal to want to surround oneself with what is familiar and comforting and 'normal'.

However, this does raise issues for the 'host' nation. It will impede 'integration', if what we mean by that term is that the 'new arrivals' adopt the 'native'/local language/practises/diet?/norms of behaviour & dress etc etc, in a reasonable timeframe.

And is such integration even desirable? I want to hold on to the rich variety and true multiculturalism of the world as a whole, but that is likely to be lessened and diluted and made more difficult by immigration, not facilitated. How ironic!

I’m just skimming this now because I’m meant to be doing stuff

But Prodigal yes that’s part of it

I’m zone 5, clinging on after deciding to take a step down work wise.

I know people will accuse you of wanting London to be more white; my views, when I dare express them, are considered baffling because I’m not white.

The globalised world thing is horrendous. I’d be overjoyed with banker type money but I’d use it to move away (though there’s issues with what while mum is alive).

The person who said about London feeling like an airport was spot on. I hate the Monte Carlo aspect as well but ironically London has lost all sense of style. That’s partly the child friendly culture though, which I hate. I sometimes think London is just people eating takeaway and screaming kids. Who are, inexplicably, being dragged around crying at 10pm by adults who are clearly just out and about, not that they’ve been on shifts and just picked up their child.

I'm not going to give spoilers but there's a German movie where that topic comes up a bit.

People are people and I imagine very few truly enjoy life on the gilded treadmill, helping to fashion a bland, globalised world.

Could well have been, hipsterfun. I just remember that he was very well-off but seemed to be struggling with the change. I remember feeling sorry for him - despite his wealth, he seemed to be very unhappy.

I remember reading about a hipster coffee shop in Deptford in what used to be the jobcenter and just thinking "oh ffs". Which obviously isn't just about the coffee shop, it's what it represents in terms of what's happened to that neighborhood and what it means for the people who lived there before.