Douglas Murray on intolerant politics

Blair’s failure to impose limits on the A8 countries as other European countries did caused some of the effects mentioned upthread
As a Brit, also, I have had to register and prove I have an adequate income or savings to support myself whilst living in other EU countries.

May’s main problem was that she didn’t have any defining political philosophy or principles.

To be fair neither does Johnson - but he (or Dominic Cummings) ran a better campaign.

What winds up my Lexit heart and Remain brain about immigration is that freedom of movement of labour is a completely different kettle of fish than freedom of movement of people.

But if you're a posh, privileged Wokeista, the difference doesn't matter much.

I seem to recall a similar furore over an historic Spanish princess being portrayed by a blonde haired, blued eyed actress, Prodigal.

And a whole load of Spanish people pointing out that she was, in reality, a blonde haired, blue eyed Spanish princess.

I think everywhere wokeism exists it causes disquiet, though people feel more or less free to say so based on location.

I think my favorite example of woke Americans versus Europeans was when a bunch of young American people complained that the Sami character in Frozen didn't look Sami, and a bunch of Scandinavians then came back with photos of actual Sami people demonstrating that they don't look like woke American kids thing they do. There are some Sami who look the way they were demanding Disney make the character look, but also a lot who don't, but again, woke American understanding of race, zero nuance.

So many great posts on this thread. To add to what others have said about immigration, what gets me about the opening up all borders and 'let them all in' stance is the lack of practicality involved, but this was overlooked because the far-left mainly live in cities that can absorb migrants. Smaller cities and towns may struggle to do so, but when this issue is raised it is dismissed as racism and xenophobia. I worked on a scheme under the Blair government which sought to integrate immigrants by giving them job search training, computer skills, language skills etc. Great, but the aims were completely unrealistic and the organisation a shambles. The client demographic included some EU citizens, but mainly those from the Middle East and Africa - many from Iraq and Afghanistan. A few would already have professional qualifications, but many were young and either had never had a job in their home countries, or had worked for a small family business - farming in rural villages, or their parent's shop where there had been no need to dress appropriately for work, turn up on time, deal with paperwork etc. A fair number of these people, through no fault of their own, were illiterate in their own languages and had never been to school. The vast majority were also men, and coming from patriarchal cultures they had problems with taking care of themselves, hygiene and cooking, paying bills etc. There was some reckless driving without licenses, from a few clients. Some also understandably were suffering from trauma and struggled with mental health problems that they probably weren't capable of going to a doctor to get help for, or culturally may not want to. Those coming from Afghanistan where they had never seen women without burqas wandering around could be grossly lecherous and bothersome towards young girls, including men who were married expecting me to tell them how to pick up women, or hitting on me themselves. It was unwelcome attention and inappropriate behaviour born of over-enthusiasm, loneliness, seeing white women as up-for-it and lacking an understanding of Western culture, more than anything more sinister, but enough of a pain, frankly, and wouldn't serve them well if they went on to work with women. Numerous times I had to deal with racist, sexist and homophobic attitudes, which were part of the cultures they had come from. I can honestly say that growing up working class, hearing racist comments from other white people in my community was rare. In fact, the most racist person I knew was probably an elderly relative, who was upper-middle class. This is something those who are pro remain also never take into consideration, that many EU countries have horrible racist, sexist, xenophobic, Islamophobic attitudes. This has become apparent to me working with other nationalities. I do genuinely believe that that the UK is one of the least racist and most accepting countries in the world, and yet there are constant accusations of racism simply for the wish to discuss the practicalities of immigration. None of this is said to demonise anyone, there were many lovely people I worked with who had been through hell and were striving to make a better life for themselves. If people grow up in a sexist, racist, homophobic culture then it's inevitable that these attitudes are passed on to them and they may never have had reason to question why things should be different before. But this is the reality of what many immigrants look like, coming from completely different cultures with a whole heap of additional issues that are barriers to integration and which often need a lot of support. The clients were expected to obtain near native level English and a job in 3 months, a completely unrealistic aim. Eventually the scheme was dropped when the money ran out and it was realised targets weren't being met. I believe that refugees should be welcomed, but for adequate provision to be put in place this needs to be budgeted for realistically, both financially and in terms of time scale. The government justifying their policies on refugees by seeing them as contributors towards the economy need to realise that this may take years to achieve and requires a substantial initial investment. It was as if they had done no research at all in terms of what was achievable. There weren't many clients from the EU, a few who tended to be young lads who didn't seem very interested in getting jobs, were more seeing it as a bit of a doss that they were being paid for. In many (most?) other EU countries, it's necessary to register and show you have enough means to support yourself, or that you already have a job, if not you have to leave the country after a certain period of time. I still fail to understand why this wasn't the case in the UK. I have nothing but respect for those who have come to the UK to settle and make a life for themselves wherever they've come from, and it was great to see some of the clients go on to thrive. It's the mismanagement of immigration to the UK and the complexity of it that is still being ignored by the Corbynistas, and the being called racist for talking about the reality of the difficulties that have been caused that is the problem. I have no doubt that despite working to try to help refugees for several years, I would be accused of being a racist bigot for directly reporting on my experiences as I have done here, by woke acquaintances who have only ever seen refugees on TV and seek to plump up their own egos by waving all the right banners around.

To be honest from what I've seen I'm not sure your average American is any more on board with 'wokeism' than people here are.

There seems to be a lot of disquiet about it effectively reintroducing segregation, about certain ethnic minorities being discriminated against for being too successful, about the same box ticking rather than trying to address real inequalities that we see here.

This is such an interesting thread.

Picking up on the issue of May I think there were a number of ingredients. One was the glass cliff - she was undoubtedly given the job because all the men recognised it as a poisoned chalice. There was also an element of the Peter Principle. She managed her home office brief competently albeit without imagination, and with a draconian streak that I (as a lefty, but also as someone who cares deeply about civil liberties) found terrible. But as PM she was woefully out of her depth.

But the real problem with May was that as a Remainer, and as a draconian former home secretary, the only way her limited imagination allowed her to make any sense of the Brexit vote was through the lens of immigration control. (Lord Ashcroft's poll the day after the referendum asked people to identify their reasons for voting as they did, and only 50% of leavers had immigration as their top concern - so slightly over 1/4 of those who voted overall).

She then was prepared to sacrifice everything - a Norway type EEA deal, the Brexiteer's desired freedom over trade deals and desire to escape the regulatory orbit of the EU, Northern Ireland, everything, on the altar of "must control immigration." The end result was "BRINO" which not surprisingly pissed off both Remainers and Leavers in the house of commons.

Also yy to how the "woke" immerse themselves in a very American-centric understanding of race which doesn't carry across to Europe at all. (It always cracks me up when they start banging on about "listening to indigenous voices"... that'll be Wales and the South West, where most of the descendants of the Ancient Britons live, then.)

Given America's own history with the "no dogs or Irish" signs on businesses and all they really ought to know better, but it's all been flattened out a bit.

May was spectacularly inept

I think she was bad at communicating - both listening and speaking - but I do believe she read her briefings, which I think is more than Johnson does.

you'll hit a brick wall of why would anyone be prejudiced against them, they're white, how is this even an issue?

This is a fundemental problem with the whole 'woke' worldview. Skin colour is the only ethnic difference they seem to recognise, with no understanding of wider cultural, religious, linguistic, and interwoven historic differences and alliances that exist across not just Europe, but Asia and Africa.

Sadly in doing so they miss all the rich and vibrant 'diversity' right on their doorstep. Their ignorance of the different countries that make up the UK (never mind the regional variations within them) never ceases to astound me, and was typified by Corbyn himself not realising Scotland is a different country with a different legal system. How lacking in curiosity do you have to be to spend 30 odd years in parliament and have completely failed to notice that minor detail?

Theresa May was acting in ways which were fundamentally illiberal manner which were against the principles of a liberal parliamentary democracy.

But that's also a different argument about whether that was about Brexit. May had a long track record of acting in a way which over stepped her power whilst as home security. It was right she was challenged.

Part of the problem here is a lack of understanding this and how a majority government is incredibly different to a minority one.

May failed to really engage with both sides early on which could have prevented a lot of misery of the last three 3 years. Until she outlined her version of Brexit which was much harder than had been proposed by anyone pre ref, plenty on both sides would have been fine with a soft exit.

May then had this idiocy about triggering A50 before having things in place which then meant she put herself in a weak position both with the EU and her own party. Her response was to piss off everyone and play everyone off.

Accountability is an important part of a functioning Liberal democracy - I completely agree with the university freedom of speech stuff. May tried to dodge it.

On the flip to that I have said for sometime the Remain side missed their window to push back for remaining. It was in the summer and autumn of 2016. I do think there was an argument for them to stop no deal but there two groups of MPs - those who did so to stop no deal and strike a deal and those who used it as an opportunity to try and reverse the ref.

Failure to recognise the moment to back down and compromise now means Brexit is likely to be harder than May proposed. I found that idiocy.

And there was an inability of remain and soft leave to come up with a coherent plan in much the same way that leave didn't have a plan when they won the ref.

A lot of what's been said here isn't dissimilar to what I've said about education and community for a long time.

It has frustrated me as the failing of both have been enormous. I do think that there is a real problem incoming about corruption and oligarchy in the UK though and far less accountability than there should be which Brexit has enabled, although it is part of a preexisting trend rather than a cause of it.

(Good posts, FlyingOink.)

The best ways I can think of to illustrate the way an American framework for understanding race (and ignoring class) has been imported is young British people talking about eating Mexican food or wearing sombreros as appropriation and an urgent issue to tackle. Yes, in the US this is huge, particularly post Trump and his bloody wall, but there are hardly any Mexican people in the UK. It's just not a political issue in a British context. Meanwhile, try explaining the situation that Polish people in the UK find themselves in to a woke American, and thus also to their woke British admirers of a certain age, and you'll hit a brick wall of why would anyone be prejudiced against them, they're white, how is this even an issue?

I feel like the fact that a lot of Americans don't really see Brits who're not white as Brits plays into this too, since they're having a massive influence on the woke uni educated younger generation. I once struggled to explain to a bunch of young Americans why going to see Tricky was like a warm hug of 90s nostalgia and felt like a bit of home when you're far away to me - they just didn't seem to get how that feeling of warm fuzzy familiar this is home for a white Brit could be attached to someone who's black. It's just such a different way of looking at things that attempting to import it to the UK just doesn't work, and I think that's why a lot of what are clearly meant to be woke anti-racist commentary from the young people influenced by that feels so jarring. They're attempting to analyse British social dynamics from an American perspective. And having imported the American refusal to engage with class issues too they're left totally unable to comprehend how Brexit could have happened.

(This is coming from someone who would have voted Remain, and whose Scottish family did. It took me a shamefully long time to understand why the vote went different in other parts of the UK.)

Bitter? Moi? Perish the thought.

And even then academic degrees are a mixed bag. I am not sure a sociology degree from Sheffield under Prof Sally Hines will equip young people with transferrable critical, analytical and research skills that will give them a head start in real life jobs.

Well, there's always the third sector merry-go-round where they can fuck up service users' lives with the wank Sally teaches them.

Social cohesion is the root of a lot of this. From benign localism to xenophobia.
Feminists rightly objected to women getting landed with caring roles.
But it's good for society to have a large proportion of active engaged people at home, in extended familial and commu city networks .
Pity its so shit for the individual. But old folk being looked in on every day, for example, by a selection of dd's and dil's and neighbours is A Good Thing.

I think people do miss that kind of life. (Even the dd's and dil's - to be honest they're still doing it trying to as well as pay the bills).
That whole set up is threatened by lack of local jobs and infrastructure, by immigrants who haven't long roots

I live in a small old fashioned town. What everyone aspires to: steady job for the man. Part time near home for the mum. Near to elderly parents, siblings, homely things.
Nothing wrong with that but its ignored. I suppose the people who are setting policy are the go getting ambitious type and no side understands the other.

It's the concept of Civic Nationalism btw, that we are united by nationality and accept different races into the mix provided they are/become citizens and follow the rules in general.
I'm oversimplifying but I'd argue that the bulk of the country agrees with this kind of outlook as it has an inherent fairness to it. It maintains stability for the indigenous whites and means immigrants have a clear path to acceptance and security.
(The idea doesn't work if there is racism!)

Ironically the US has previously been very big on Civic Nationalism in theory (all pledge allegiance to a flag etc etc) but let down minorities in practice, like sending black soldiers on suicide missions in Vietnam and letting GWB serve in the National Guard at home.

Just posting this for lurkers who might not know of it as an idea.

So to say "you should have worked harder at school" in order to get a better job, well, that assumes you went to a school where it was possible to "work harder" to get somewhere. And it assumes that working harder at school equates to the ability to get a better paying job. These things are simply not givens in my area of the North.

Some people don't realise the the social contract has been well and truly broken for many people.

Additionally on the race/nationality issue, a few points: the importation of US racial discourse means having a concept of whiteness and blackness that tallies with theirs. Whereas in the UK and Europe generally, the vast majority of people have white skin but identify according to nationality. A Croatian person is white, as is a Norwegian person, but the two people wouldn't necessarily consider themselves exactly the same racially. Americans do because they are very mixed. Black Americans have no way to trace their ancestry because the majority were bought and sold as slaves, and many have white ancestors also. Whereas here black people have (for example) Jamaican or Ghanaian backgrounds so there is a different cultural background. (I'm aware of slavery in the West Indies of course)
It's not a binary (!) black/white thing. In the US there is a "white" culture, memes about acting white, not being able to dance, not seasoning food etc that would seem odd to an Italian or French person.
So yeah, as mentioned by an earlier poster (Lang?) we have imported their obsession with race and not addressed our problems with class.
Someone shared some old Conservative posters on social media recently and there was one (low res so I couldn't read the copy) with a picture of a black man/same advert with an asian man stating that Labour called him "black" but the Tories called him British. It was in a list of "problematic" old election posters.

@AutumnRose1
I’ve also been told off for blaming academics

Oh, please, feel free. I think academics have done a huge amount of damage. I've been looking at academic Twitter over lunchtime and have nothing for contempt for the bewildered and angry reaction to this election result, and the complete lack of self-awareness. For all their supposed intelligence they just don't see that their woke SJW bubble is a cult, an intolerant religion that demands complete capitulation. And that everyone else can see through it and voted accordingly.

I am also not white, and what you say about identity politics really resonates. I feel completely othered by my university's equality and diversity activity. If I'm not being made to feel inferior because my sex is no longer recognised (complete capitulation to gender ideology), then my skin colour is being drawn attention to, when it hadn't been since the 1980s. Making it obvious that your role on an interview panel is to not be white does not feel to me like progress.

Thanks for the link to the Andrew Doyle video, btw - I enjoyed that.