Douglas Murray on intolerant politics

You may well be considered "North London metropolitan elite", AutumnRose.

I'm quite sure the phrase is also widely used as a pejorative by people who don't know the antisemitic connotation of it – they just know it as a pejorative.

So a nice win for the antisemites in mainstreaming use of their language (not as a reclamation of that language, but to draw people in without them realising where the discussion is tending).

And a reality-check needed for those not intending any antisemitism but casually tossing round pejorative stereotypes they've picked up from others, because they sounded good for a quick sneer...

Commes vous dites, le sigh.

'when someone says, "North London metropolitan elite", which is widely used as antisemitic code for "Jews"."'

Is it? I can see how it would have come about, but surely these days it mainly means Corbyn and his gang?

I get a similar twitch at "TIM" in GC vs trans lingo because to me it says sectarianism, not genderism.

Perking "In fact I can't hear it at all without the same sort of twitch I get when someone says, "North London metropolitan elite", which is widely used as antisemitic code for "Jews"."

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I thought I was probably considered that, but that was before I knew it was being used as antisemitic code. Le sigh.

It's very laden with racist connotations to anyone familiar with this history. Which is a lot of people in the UK – even more since the early 2000s, when a lot of Zimbabweans came here during the civil unrest and economic collapse.

I didn't know this, so thank you.

I sometimes think politicians only see communities in terms of "this sexuality" "this religion" etc which is such a load of rubbish.

It suits politicians to do this. I am extremely familiar with the practise being from a place with a clear, in your face, religious divide which the Labour and Tory parties have sought to exploit to lesser or greater degrees depending on the 'zeitgeist' of the moment.

Weirdly of recent times I've been wondering if living with clear division is such a bad thing after all. I've always had to accept people who think very differently from me, accept people's right to hold and express their beliefs in a very public manner, make my peace with people who do think differently still being decent people and with decent people making wrong assumptions about me because of the nature of our society. Despite the divisions we mostly all rub along together. We can manage to still be there for each other regardless of differences. It isn't that hard.

Could do without politicians shit stirring though.

In fact I can't hear it at all without the same sort of twitch I get when someone says, "North London metropolitan elite", which is widely used as antisemitic code for "Jews".

My reaction is: "Was that an innocent, unaware use? Or was that a use deliberately freighted with these other meanings? Or a bit of both, because someone's picked up, and wants to propagate, a pejorative connotation – even though they don't know understand quite how it's pejorative?"

Just a warning about the phrase "kith and kin".

It may feel completely neutral to many, and I'm not saying it shouldn't ever be used, BUT be aware that during the 1960s and 1970s it was used extensively when discussing white Rhodesians (many of whom were very recent, UK-born, settlers) after Rhodesia had made the Unilateral Declaration of Independence in 1965 specifically so it could remain a white supremacist state.

From the UK point of view, we were reluctant to take military action against Rhodesia, because it was against "kith and kin". And from the Zimbabwe independence movement's point of view, they were reluctant to trust the UK on anything, assuming (with good reason) that we would unofficially retain loyalty to white Rhodesians over black Zimbabweans.

It's very laden with racist connotations to anyone familiar with this history. Which is a lot of people in the UK – even more since the early 2000s, when a lot of Zimbabweans came here during the civil unrest and economic collapse.

So depending who you're talking to, they may interpret it as you dogwhistling about white supremacism.

Kith - yes, I guess I'm looking for new kith because Londoners are scattered so far away and that's why I joined the local church.

I sometimes think politicians only see communities in terms of "this sexuality" "this religion" etc which is such a load of rubbish.

we did have much stronger community links in my London burb 20 years ago but sadly everything changed, for many reasons.

Kith and kin feels like it could be used in the 'present' without the baggage of national identity

Yes, it does. I feel lucky that my extended family provides a close and supported kin, even though we no longer live near each other. And that, although I have moved away from the kith of my childhood, I've found a new one in the life I moved to in the countryside.

These things are life's stabilisers and anchors

Which is why politicians ignore the importance of stable communities at their peril.

(Reiterating PPs thanks to all contributors for an absolutely wonderful thread. See what productive, intelligent, interesting, thoughtful and conflict-free conversations we have here, when we are not plagued by inimical provocateurs and community disruptors?)

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Placemarking

And not just the English of course.

Kith and kin feels like it could be used in the 'present' without the baggage of national identity, something that the English working class could identify with.

You can't put a price on that.
No, you can't: it's amazing. I only have kith here, though: my kin are scattered across the globe. Having kith around, though, has given my DC a sense of security and an understanding of community.

Kith and kin is perfect and precious indeed. I'm lucky to be surrounded by mine. For example I live across the street from the parents of an old school friend. People who, at a pinch, could and occasionally did, look after my children if we were really stuck.

You can't put a price on that.

Kith and kin describes it well.
This is something I never had around me when I had young children. My family had moved out of London, as did many of my relatives in the fifties and sixties. The family just scattered across the south for various reasons, jobs mainly and housing and there's no going back.

To be part of a community with your own kith and kin is a precious thing. Racism and bigotry doesn't come into it.

Thanks Grumpy, we need to revive the meaning of kith, if only to support those in danger of losing it.

When I said families, I meant people that live and work together, not just families.
The very, very old word for this is kith.
As in 'kith and kin'. Your kin are your relations. Your kith are the people you grew up surrounded by. I am fortunate to live somewhere where I see them daily. My DC benefit from this as well. It's increasingly rare and very undervalued.

I've loved this thread. I've not had time to engage as cogently as I would like to, but I hope I can go back through it over the weekend and follow the links.

Fannybaws is totally inclusive.

The one my grandparents were in was council run - they & others moved there from their council houses

My granny & G'dad lived in a place like that til they died (Scotland) - a one bed, self contained flat in a block with pull cords in every room & all sorts of social stuff going on every day in the common room; 24 hour live in wardens.

They also had the option to eat in the communal eating bit (like a canteen sort of thing) if they didn't feel like cooking for themselves

The hairdresser used to come every week as well!

So the solution is to build low to medium assistance complexes of apartments with a 24 hour porter and nurse, but trying to get this model accepted is very difficult -- because it is a fairly new type of concept.

Eh? I don't understand this comment at all.

Such retirement complexes have been around for, well, I don't even know how long. Light touch but with facilities when needed – 24-hour porter, pull-cords in case of a fall, etc.

Are you perhaps talking about whether such accommodation is owned by local authorities? I wouldn't know that side of it. But it's really not a new concept.

Fannybaws is totally inclusive.

There are plenty of countries with a sort of "public" dialect or even language, and then various more local/community/even family based dialects.

Are they controversial in other places, it doesn't seem to me like they are necessarily.

I remember years ago Inverness being stated as the best spoken English in the UK. A soft Highlandish accent is very pleasant imv.
I like regional accents but heard youngsters working in a nearby restaurant in broad local language- 'can a git ye Onythin?'
There's a time and place but political correctness means we have to celebrate dialects and accents and can't say the obvious - that you also need to be able to speak to a mixed public.
Foreign hotel staff speak v good English.

Yeah bawbag and fanny are still HILARIOUS as part of a Scottish-flavoured tirade!
Perfectly fine! Can't use them casually in lots of other contexts because it's bad form to use gendered slurs

I do notice these ferocious Twitter warriors dare not ever venture out of the Western bits of Twitter to argue for women/LGBT rights. Just shout at each other about it.