Douglas Murray on intolerant politics

That, I reckon, is the line. Concepts of identity and culture have to be useful, they have to deliver material benefit and value; otherwise, it's all just esoteric navel-gazing, init?

Precisely.

I may be missing the point of some of the discussion but I saw an interesting read/TEDx talk.

Don’t ask where I’m from, ask where I’m a local.

twitter.com/taiyeselasi/status/648987793344077824

I'm multi-ethnic and from a multi-heritage background, and it's non-Commonwealth. I read as white, but my euroasian features mean I've been asked where I am from with the "no, really" tag since I was about 13 -- and interestingly, the people who most tended to ask were from BAME communities.

Looking back as an adult, there was evidence of 'wariness' even when I was very young. One of my primary teachers referred to me as the "olive-skinned girl" (I'm not olive skinned, btw. Just kinda yellowy. )

Does it bother me? Nah, not really. I'll always be an outsider, and that position is both a boon and a curse. I prefer to focus on the boon aspect of it. I can be nominally read as a native across Europe, North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia. If someone assumes that I am something I am not, it doesn't bother me because the only people who could possibly guess my ethnicity accurately would have to be specialists in a very niche area of history.

In a literary sense, my identity is very Borgesian; I'm a kind of mythic beast from a place that doesn't exist and a culture that is lost to time.

What does bother me though is that there is no recognition that people have these complex identities that very much challenge simplistic political, social and cultural narratives about race, ethnicity, culture and belonging. I guess my background enables me to see the complexity of other people's identities in this regard, and I reckon it is that insight that allows me to understand other people's perspectives.

So when one of my white working class neighbours mentions feeling a bit bothered because they had an experience where they felt they were suddenly in another country, I get that because I've experienced that sense of dislocation my entire life. When someone from a BAME community tells me they had an experience that they think might have been influenced by racial or cultural prejudices, I get that because I've had those suspicions throughout my life as well.

But when I muse about identity and culture, sometimes I just think: "well, none of this shit gets carrots peeled, does it?"

That, I reckon, is the line. Concepts of identity and culture have to be useful, they have to deliver material benefit and value; otherwise, it's all just esoteric navel-gazing, init?

And that is the point that I think we, in the Western world, may have breached in the last decade. It's identity for identity's sake in some sections of society.

Also can’t we just live in a world where we just apologise if we cause offence? Nobody sails through life without offending someone sometime or another.

Ideally, yeah. And then intent becomes a factor. "I'm really sorry, I didn't realise that was offensive to you, I didn't intend to upset you, I won't say it again" is pretty thorough.
Except that's not enough for the professional grievance merchants (rarely the actual aggrieved party and more the online mob).
If you interact, you risk getting it wrong. If you can't even rely on a heartfelt apology smoothing things over, it's safer to just not interact.

I’d be more inclined to ask someone where they were from based on an accent rather than skin colour.

Also can’t we just live in a world where we just apologise if we cause offence? Nobody sails through life without offending someone sometime or another.

The more I find out about everything, the more I think it’s all batshit.

Welcome to my world.

The more I find out about everything, the more I think it’s all batshit.

Re schools, esp sectarianism and Edinburgh - that’s one of the reasons I ended up in London and abroad. I couldn’t bear the way people were so desperate to put me in a box based on my school/religion. To me that’s the negative side of the “somewheres” , at least in Scotland

I had the same experience with a flatmate from Northern Ireland. We weren’t friends - just found ourselves living together. Her need to put people in buckets was really weird to me (Londoner). She wanted to know what religion I was and what sort of school I went to. As an atheist Londoner Id never been asked these questions before. Ironically she also wanted right-on points for having a Protestant boyfriend (she was Catholic) and the fact that I wasn’t playing that game really annoyed her. Funnily enough we were both on the way to becoming Anywheres. This all happened in Brussels where we were working and she now lives in London and is just as much a part of the metropolitan mindset as I am.

Re schools, esp sectarianism and Edinburgh - that’s one of the reasons I ended up in London and abroad. I couldn’t bear the way people were so desperate to put me in a box based on my school/religion. To me that’s the negative side of the “somewheres” , at least in Scotland

To be clear "which school did you go to " in an Edinburgh context is to establish if it was private or state and has nothing to do with sectarianism. And even in Edinburgh will only be a consideration in very small circles.

There is a problem with sectarianism in Scotland but it is a Glasgow/west of Scotland problem- don't tar the rest of the country with it.

Generally think the post above is a huge exaggeration- and I usually can't stand the "everything is so much better in Scotland" attitude which seems to be a feature of MN.

Re schools, esp sectarianism and Edinburgh - that’s one of the reasons I ended up in London and abroad. I couldn’t bear the way people were so desperate to put me in a box based on my school/religion. To me that’s the negative side of the “somewheres” , at least in Scotland.

One recurrent tactic is ad hominem and guilt by association fallacy.
I've noticed a lot of sealioning. This is particularly effective when used by uni students (who basically make arguments and read arguments daily, who understand social media and who have the time to sit and argue) against people who are either less educated or who left education some time ago, who might comment occasionally online.
They probe and dig out inarticulate, half-formed concerns, and then castigate those people for daring to voice their opinion. The result is an unwillingness to discuss; nobody wants to be made a fool of or accused of being discriminatory so they stay in their own echo chamber.
The problem with that, of course, is that there's no moderating influence. If (for example) you only talk to Remainers, the Leave position becomes more and more difficult to comprehend. And if you are a Leaver, you decide not to engage with Remainers who mock you, and so you then become firmly entrenched in a group with people who want to concrete up the Channel Tunnel.

This review in the Times made me think of this thread:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-left-for-itself-by-david-swift-review-corbyn-6zhfm3rp3?shareToken=cc64de919bb25d5c1f5a5b1fb95a7935

MoltenLasagne yes that's a perfect example.

AutumnRose1 I don't know. On an individual level yes, that makes perfect sense. On a local level the segregation in Northern towns has definitely been a contributing factor in unrest, crime and lack of opportunities for people on both sides of the divide.
I'm not suggesting we all have to stagger through uncomfortable conversations with idiots out of some sense of moral obligation, it's more that otherwise well-meaning people will self-censor to the extent that they will avoid situations entirely.
I'm a big fan of integration and it doesn't happen without interaction.

The language thing really reminds me of the Deptford group which got invaded by the Goldsmiths students. The group had been doing great, practical work for years and then the students came and they made the focus telling off people for using the wrong words instead.

So the privileged became the victims, the actual people in need were told they couldn't talk about stuff because their words were wrong, and instead of actually doing anything helpful, the students just language policed and felt like that was a good enough difference to make.

Flying speaking as someone who is currently seeking a “brand new friend” to quote Lloyd Cole, this idea “ but I think there's a risk that friendships will be harder to strike up if people decide not to engage at all with people they are scared of offending” doesn’t worry me.

It feels like the same argument people make about men giving compliments in the workplace and what if it’s hard to form relationships.

It’ll be fine. People managed to do this stuff for ages just by being polite and sensible.

I’ve had more than one poster on MN say they are disappointed when they don’t get the back story they wanted
Yeah there are people who conduct a full-on interview. I avoid them.

It’s good if these “conversations” stop. Conversation can easily flow without those kinds of questions, in fact it flows better.

I meant conversation will stop altogether. I wouldn't engage recently with a frankly very dramatic transwoman on a night out. Everyone else was having awkward conversation and I just avoided it. There was no way to engage on terms I felt comfortable with. That's an extreme example (and very specific to that person!), but I think there's a risk that friendships will be harder to strike up if people decide not to engage at all with people they are scared of offending.
And yes, I totally agree that "where are you from" when you're black is different to "where are you from" when you just have a different accent, or an interesting surname.
Also schools questions in Scotland are often sectarian questions.
Those of us who are in some way different have had to deal with questions from the interested and the nasty. Personally I don't mind explaining my heritage or explaining why "which one is the man" is kinda missing the point, provided a: I have the time and b: the person is interested not nasty.
That's just me though, nobody else owes anyone answers.

Not I dunno. I wouldn’t ask a stranger or new work person etc that question. Just being friendly and chatty is fine and allows you to get to know someone.

I’ve had more than one poster on MN say they are disappointed when they don’t get the back story they wanted and I think it’s weird. No one is there for your entertainment.

We’ve also had many posters say they hate being asked on the basis of accent, for all kinds of reasons.

Is it a question you’d ask if I was white?

Yes, I have asked white people where they're from if that's what I'm interested in knowing. I would be very wary of asking a non-white person the same question though, because of the problems you've described.

It doesn't seem ideal that we're in a situation where I (and I'm sure others) feel that we have to treat people differently based on their race, although I accept that there currently might not be a better alternative.

Not “ But if I were to meet you and have a genuine interest in you”

Also, if that happens, conversation flows without these idiotic questions.

NotDavidTennant I guess it depends on the context.

Is it a question you’d ask if I was white?

Bus stop lady asked me after we’d all seen in the display that one bus had been diverted. I looked on my phone and all at said bus stop were trying to figure out our other routes. So she could hear clearly that I’m a Londoner, but still chose to ask “where are you from?”

When I said “what do you mean?” she said “well, your SKIN! I can see you’re not from here”.

There was further conversation and I think she was one of those people who thought they were showing some sort of “interest” because yadda yadda multicultural woke blah, but I wanted to scream FUCK OFF YOU RACIST”.