Times leader: The Gender Trap

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

It's a gem.

It truly is parallel universe stuff. I still can’t quite comprehend how this has been going on for years while most people have absolutely no idea this lobby even exists. I didn’t until a few months ago.

In the spirit of silver linings, it has been rather joyful watching you peak umpteen times on here over the course of the last few months!

I hate to tell you, but you're honestly not that far up from base camp!

TimeLady posted a brilliant link to an article by Stephen Whittle about the GRA and he seemed to be seriously arguing that prior to the 18th century, two distinct sexes didn’t exist....

In a similar vein, it is argued that homosexuality didn't exist until a similar time period.

It's this school of thought that naming or classifying something is what brings it into existence.
It's why they claim science, biological sex and homosexuality are colonial / capitalist constructs that should be deconstructed so we can all live in queer paradise.

I thought no one could top the clownfish nonsense, but then PC Gul came along to educate Harry Miller about the incidence of male body parts growing out of ladybrains.

Can I suggest reading the Annals of Terf Wars in tandem with this by Julie Bindel unherd.com/2019/04/the-transsexual-empire/

It feels like being trapped in a Philip K Dick novel at times.

Bovary have you run across Jane Clare Jones' masterpiece 'The T*rf Wars'? It's rather good. It definitely includes examples of the 'because clownfish' debate

No, I will check that out, thank you Michelle. Clownfish. It’s barking mad!

Like seriously, sometimes I'm tempted to just respond with "you realize that humans are mammals, right?”

It truly is parallel universe stuff. I still can’t quite comprehend how this has been going on for years while most people have absolutely no idea this lobby even exists. I didn’t until a few months ago. This forum and its knowledgeable posters have really provided a great education. A lot of it is astounding. I don’t think this agenda has any popular support but this lobby has colonized so many institutions. By stealth

Bovary have you run across Jane Clare Jones' masterpiece 'The T*rf Wars'? It's rather good. It definitely includes examples of the 'because clownfish' debate.

Indeed, nobody knew what sex anyone was until the Victorians. It's amazing that they ever managed to get babby formed really.

TimeLady posted a brilliant link to an article by Stephen Whittle about the GRA and he seemed to be seriously arguing that prior to the 18th century, two distinct sexes didn’t exist....

Like seriously, sometimes I'm tempted to just respond with "you realize that humans are mammals, right?"

You might think they'd try to pick something within the same genus, except that oops, there aren't any.

Bovary clownfish have been somewhat incoherently used for years as a justification that sex isn't binary, as they change sex or something. The fact that humans aren't clownfish never seems to register

How utterly bloody ludicrous! The incoherence of their position is beyond parody.....

All the lefty Canadians I know are firmly opposed to self ID, but that's partly self selection in terms of who I gravitate towards and partly Yaniv starting to hit the news. The CBC seems to be even more firmly committed to stifling dissent than the BBC has been.

Bovary clownfish have been somewhat incoherently used for years as a justification that sex isn't binary, as they change sex or something. The fact that humans aren't clownfish never seems to register.

What is the clownfish reference that I keep seeing?

Clownfish can change sex.

This comment in the Times was brilliantly succinct:

"As I am currently engaged in the unamusing process of trying to get a mortgage or loan to expand my property business, I can at least amuse myself by thinking that it would be easier to self-certify my gender than my income."

I've found it's much harder to talk about this to left leaning Americans because they're mostly in a sort of tribalistic bunker mentality at the moment, partly due to Trump. The UK seems to be the vanguard of the fightback and I suspect that what happens in the UK will have ripples internationally.

There is something really concerning about how all of the media are isolating off the issue of women's rights vs trans rights as somehow only a Lib Dem issue.

Yes. To the extent that the Times has misrepresented the Labour position on self-ID, saying it's not in their current manifesto, when it is.

Can I ask a stupid question? What is the clownfish reference that I keep seeing?

I just got round to reading the article. They say that both Labour and the Tories support the 'status quo' as far as the GRA is concerned:

It should also be noted that it was the Tories who originally proposed writing self-ID into law, although their manifesto now supports the status quo. Similarly, although Labour’s 2017 manifesto supported self-ID, as does Jeremy Corbyn personally, the party’s present manifesto also backs the status quo.

But this is what the Labour manifesto says about the GRA (on page 68):

Labour is committed to reforming the Gender Recognition Act 2004 to introduce self-declaration for transgender people

labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change-Labour-Manifesto-2019.pdf

Yes, The Times has excellent coverage, the articles that have been linked here have been superb.

There is something really concerning about how all of the media are isolating off the issue of women's rights vs trans rights as somehow only a Lib Dem issue.

It is totally to point the finger at Jo Swinson and not the 2 main parties, one of which will be forming the next government as from this friday.

It is beginning to look like at active tactic to isolate it off as something only a fringe group is proposing.

If the Times is really serious (and despite the number of article is it?) they would be phrasing this as an immediate concern because both Tory and Labour are committed to reforming the GRA. Labour in fact wants to make misgendering a hate crime.

There is no time for this dilettante pondering by the Times. It is happening here and now.

When either the Tory or Labour Government early in 2020 starts the reforms they have obviously promised to the Stonewall lobby machine, where will the Times be then.

Doing too little too late.

If they really cared about the issue, and weren't just using it to say look how silly the Lib Dems are, they would be challenging the 2 main parties as of now.

We should not let ourselves be bought off by this tokenistic misdirection. Looks more and more like this is being done to allow GRA plans to go ahead while we all jump up and down in orchestrated unions pointing fingers at the Lib Dems - the least relevant party.

Thanks prodigal

Great progress on this issue from a feminist perspective in the UK, I’m very pleased to see the daylight

US is so polarized on everything rn. Even a lot of scientists I know have been nodding along to clownfish arguments because those arguments come from the right sort rather than the dark side. Hard to even know where to start...

I am curious about the media there
FWR
The Telegraph is old school Conservative, The Times is centre right, The Guardian is left wing. TV news, IMO, is dominated by left wing opinion. There is absolutely nothing like Fox. Sky has a revolving cabaret of Guardian columnists. The left wing media often avoid reporting news which is problematic for its agenda. The Guardian is appalling for that and is so politically biased, I don’t bother reading it at all anymore. The Spectator is right wing and its coverage of this issue has been excellent. James Kirkup has done superb analysis of the lobby group’s tactics.