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Original poster

I want to make sure that Irish politicians can't deny their part in Self ID

53 replies

Mermoose · 09/12/2019 09:14

Self ID was introduced in Ireland by lobbyists who purposely avoided public discussion of it.
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

Since then I've written to politicians explaining that gender critical people are not motivated by hatred but have well-founded concerns about sex-based rights, poor medical practice and freedom of speech. All I ever ask is for free and open discussion on this topic. Usually I receive no reply, or at best, one promising a response at a later date (which never comes).

Meanwhile, Irish parties not only support Self ID without explaining why, but they actively discourage discussion. Candidates from both the Greens and the Social Democrats have used the word 'terf'. When Primetime ran an episode on the effect of Self ID and transitioning in young people, Regina Doherty of Fine Gael criticised it for doing so. mobile.twitter.com/ReginaDo/status/1087840022265503744

I think that Self ID, belief in innate gender identity, and denial of biological sex, are all going to turn out to harm a lot of people, trans people included. In time, trying to silence criticism will look, not like a woke vote-winner, but like the arrogance, authoritarianism and stupidity it is.

In the meantime, people get harmed. Because for politicians in Ireland, the safe bet is supporting all this and demonising gender critical people. We need to change that. We need them to wake up and really think about this, and let opposing views be heard.

I think the way to do this is to make sure that they know they can't wash their hands of this if it all turns out the way we think it will. I'm hoping that Irish women & men on here would be interested in a letter-writing campaign. Here's my idea:

We choose a few individuals from each party. We write to them, clearly setting out the possible problems with self ID and current medical treatments. We ask for open debate. And we tell them that the reason several of us are writing the same letter to them, is so that they cannot deny they knew about these issues.

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Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 22/02/2020 22:06

Mermoose

WPATH, the name sounds so Professional doesn't it, on first glance you would take it as an authority.
Are they really following these guidelines without researching it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3414279-Can-we-talk-about-WPATH

I really don't mind calling into the local offices, I just want to present arguments without getting tongue tied. Your op is really good though and I'll work from that.

Original poster
Mermoose · 17/02/2020 10:55

Oncewasblueandyellowtoo
I think all the main parties are supportive of WPATH guidelines, self ID for under 16s etc. If you feel comfortable calling into local offices good on you - seeing how many politicians respond to civil questions on this, I don't think I'd want to. I'll try & get more done on this & come up with a more concise way of presenting it all.

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Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 15/02/2020 00:07

Mermoose

With the possibility of another election, or who knows what can happen.
But if there is another election coming should i/we, start calling into local offices?
I just found out this week that Sinn Fein support self I'd for under 16s.

Original poster
Mermoose · 13/02/2020 10:43

Thanks WipeYourFeet, good to have that as reference. Yeah, all the parties have lost their minds on this issue.
Thanks SpindleBerry. I was hunting down some references & stopped working on it but will add more soon.

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SpindleBerry · 12/02/2020 20:48

That's a really good article from Kirkup, thanks for posting it. I'm not in Ireland but good luck with the action you take, I believe it will have a cumulative effect.

"I’m going to conclude with an observation I’ve made here before, but which I think bears repeating in the context of that report and the things it might tell people about other aspects of the trans issue: no policy made in the shadows can survive in sunlight"

WipeYourFeet · 12/02/2020 20:13

And ...

I want to make sure that Irish politicians can't deny their part in Self ID
I want to make sure that Irish politicians can't deny their part in Self ID
WipeYourFeet · 12/02/2020 20:12

I read that story today & immediately thought this is why there should be single sex wards - full stop.
Mental health history of the male patient shouldn't come into it at all.

Back to the original topic of this thread, I'm ashamed to say I wish I had done my homework before the election and read the Green Party's stance on Trans issues. Endangering our kids to this fad.
It's here on this twitter thread (hope this link works) twitter.com/glasaaiteacha/status/1225365973332627456?s=21

I want to make sure that Irish politicians can't deny their part in Self ID
I want to make sure that Irish politicians can't deny their part in Self ID
Original poster
Mermoose · 12/02/2020 14:42

Thanks Miri. How horrible for that girl.
Buy also - why do they keep saying that it was a mistake to put her in a mixed ward because the guy had a history of mental illness? Men assault women all the time, they don't have to have a history of mental illness to do it.

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miri1985 · 12/02/2020 14:23

@Mermoose in case you missed this today, thought it was very pertinent in light of what the Soc Dems and I'm sure some other parties want www.thejournal.ie/teenager-sexually-assaulted-in-cork-hospital-ward-5004069-Feb2020/

Original poster
Mermoose · 05/02/2020 22:14

I just don't know. This issue is so politicised, the strangest decisions are taken and it seems like usual caution just doesn't apply.

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miri1985 · 05/02/2020 22:05

I would hope in light of the HSE settling the case where the woman got narcolepsy from the swine flu vaccine would put them off trying anything where informed consent is the sole method and there is no gatekeeping.

That case was supposed to test whether informed consent was an appropriate model where a drug had limited clinical trials
www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/swine-flu/

It was settled out of court right before trial www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/woman-settles-case-alleging-swine-flu-vaccine-link-to-narcolepsy-1.4088119

Original poster
Mermoose · 05/02/2020 21:34

Well that's the Soc Dems crossed off for me. I just read their LGBTI+ Policy, and it's dreadful.

They are promising:

  • Introduction of the informed-consent model of care (which means that patients take all responsibility for the outcome of the treatment, and removes gatekeeping)
  • Updating hate speech legislation - in this context, will very likely lead to Maya Forstater-type cases
  • Gender neutral facilities in all services, especially where there are vulnerable people - it actually says that, so exactly the people who need safeguarding won't get it
  • Ban conversion therapy - which has already been done? But I take it that this means they're against anything but affirmative care, which will lead to detransitioners.

I wasn't hopeful, but this is worse than I'd imagined.

www.socialdemocrats.ie/socdems-lgbti-policy-bringing-hope-and-building-trust/

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3timeslucky · 05/02/2020 19:41

So she's not GC enough to be following what's going on? I do wonder if any of them have a clue about the legislation, the impact, what's happening in schools, colleges, prisons, the concerns raised by Donal O'Shea ... anything really.

ludog · 05/02/2020 16:52

That's true enough. She wasn't inclined to believe me about the TW in Limerick prison

3timeslucky · 05/02/2020 16:13

If she's that cagey on a doorstep what chances are there of her coming over all brave in the Dail?

ludog · 05/02/2020 16:00

I've just had my local SF candidate at the door. I brought up self ID she was very cagey about it until she figured my stance on it. She's a terf, I do believe 😁

3timeslucky · 03/02/2020 20:20

It isn't an Irish Tavi clinic as such. The HSE (our NHS but much crappier) is hiring in the services of two Tavi Clinicians. I'm sure that ensures that the HSE (and by extension we the taxpayers) will be picking up the bills for the lawsuits that will inevitably follow.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 03/02/2020 14:26

I didn’t know the Tavi had an Irish clinic. I know they have one in Leeds. I wonder if there are any more?

MadamBatty · 03/02/2020 14:03

So who in HSE is making this decision that all is ‘grand’. An administrator or a Clinician? Thanks for the link Miri1985

miri1985 · 03/02/2020 13:51

www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/doctors-in-row-with-hse-over-claims-childrens-transgender-care-is-unsafe-38920159.html

"A number of doctors have claimed a service under which adolescents with gender dysphoria can be given puberty-suppressing hormone blockers is "unsafe" and must be immediately stopped, but their concerns were suppressed.

The service is provided in Ireland by flying in two clinicians from an NHS trust in London to run clinics at Crumlin Children's Hospital.

But the Irish Independent has learned at least three doctors working in the gender area expressed grave concerns over the service provided by the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust at Crumlin.

The concerns over standards of clinical care and governance were raised at a meeting of doctors and hospital officials in Crumlin last March.

These included that children had been started on hormone treatment when they did not appear to be suitable.

However, the issues raised and calls by the doctors for the service to be "terminated with immediate effect" were omitted from draft minutes of the meeting.

Something of a standoff has ensued since then, with the HSE claiming their concerns were "not representative of the many clinicians who refer to the Tavistock". Transgender Equality Network Ireland (TENI) has also said it does not have any concerns about the service provided in Crumlin.

Some 291 Irish children have used the service since 2015.

The doctors who raised concerns are consultant endocrinologist Professor Donal O'Shea and consultant psychiatrists Dr Paul Moran and Dr Ian Schneider. All three are attached to the adult national gender service at St Columcille's Hospital in Loughlinstown, Dublin, which deals with adult referrals, including children previously treated at Crumlin."

So 3 senior doctors involved with transgender care on a day to day basis think that the child referrals are "unsafe" but the HSE is ignoring that because other people who aren't involved in it think its grand. Anyone want to speculate how many million this is going to cost the State when the lawsuits start?

Original poster
Mermoose · 22/01/2020 17:39

Fifth: Women’s Sports

Many sports are segregated by sex, with good reason. As developmental biologist Dr Emma Hilton has explained in her speech to A Woman’s Place UK,

“Males can run faster, jump longer, throw further and lift heavier than females. They outperform females by 10% on the running track to 30% when throwing various balls.
So big is the gap, there are 9000 males between 100m world record holders Usain Bolt and FloJo.
So early does the gap emerge, the current female 100m Olympic champion, Elaine Thompson, is slower than the 14 year old schoolboy record holder.
So unassailable the gap has proven to be, virtually all elite sports have a protected female category, to allow females to compete fairly against those with the same female potential, and to win, and, OK, to make a little money maybe.”

fairplayforwomen.com/emma_hilton/

Dr Hilton’s speech goes on the discuss the limited effect of medical transition on these differences, but also the fact that male people are often not required to medically transition to compete alongside natal females. What women and girls stand to lose is a fair competition but also, in some cases, safety, for example in contact sports like rugby.

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Original poster
Mermoose · 22/01/2020 17:38

Fourth Section: Academic Freedom

Feminists and others who believe sex stereotypes to be harmful need the freedom to critique and examine the concept of gender identity. Far from freeing us from stereotypes, it seems to us very much the case that the current understanding of gender is reifying them.

But the way that gender as a concept has been politicised has led to any discussion of it being termed transphobic. There has been serious suppression of debate in academia, as discussed in an article in The Guardian this month.
www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jan/14/sacked-silenced-academics-say-they-are-blocked-from-exploring-trans-issues

Writing in the journal of the British Educational Research Association, Alice Sullivan and Judith Suissa catalogued a series of incidents in which gender critical scholars were intimidated or smeared. www.bera.ac.uk/blog/the-gender-wars-academic-freedom-and-education

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Original poster
Mermoose · 22/01/2020 17:36

Third Section: Sexist Stereotyping

The use of ‘gender’ in preference to ‘sex’ raises the question what exactly is meant by ‘gender’. It’s a word that has several meanings, but nobody - including groups such as the Irish Council of Civil Liberties, which lobbied for the GRA - seems to be clear which one they are using.

Gender can be used as a synonym for sex, but obviously that is not the case with the GRA and in discussions of gender identity. Someone with a ‘male gender identity’ is not necessarily biologically male.

Gender can also mean the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex - that is, sex stereotypes, such as clothing, games, interests etc associated with each sex. Certainly in accounts of trans children, this seems to be the meaning. For example, in this study, gender identity appears to mean affinity with sex stereotypes:
“transgender boys (assigned females at birth), on average identified as boys, favored stereotypically masculine toys and clothes, and preferred to be friends with boys.”
meaww.com/trans-kids-preferences-gravitate-toys-clothes-different-sex-birth-study-assigned

In accounts by detransitioners, they often understood it this way.

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thepuredrop · 14/01/2020 20:36

Good luck to you all. I'm UK-based for the foreseeable so don't think I'm much help.

bellinisurge · 14/01/2020 19:46

Thank you, op. Will be interesting to see how politicians address this in the GE campaign.