Rachel Burden
Jo Swinson
Anna in Warwickshire
RB: Let's go to Anna in Warwickshire. Welcome to the show Anna, what would you like to ask?
AiW: Thank you very much, good morning. Jo, my question for you - It's really great that your party promotes women's rights so please can you tell me what a woman is?
JS: [pause] Um, well ... er, I know I'm a woman, and, er ... and I think we do - we - we know - er, what - what we are. And I think all women are important and their rights need to be protected ... whether they are black, asian, white, whether they are gay or straight or bi, whether they have a very privileged upbringing or whether they don't have much money, whether they are cis or trans, whether they have a disability ... we are all important in all of those different ways.
AiW: So how can you tell what a woman is?
JS: [pause] Well, I mean I'm - I'm just sort of ... trying to understand, you know, what you're getting at. I think - I think we know, when we engage with each other - when - you know, we know if we're a woman, right? And we know, you know ...
AiW: Yep.
JS: ... and I can tell you that I am, right? So ... and - and - you know, we're not going to start a scenario where we go and, you know, perform inspections on people, are we?
AiW: No. What if a man wears a dress twice a week, is he a woman?
JS: Um, I ... not necessarily?
AiW: But could he be?
JS: Well, I think ... I think people can understand their own identity and I think it's right to respect people in terms of their gender identity, and that's for them to say.
AiW: If he dressed as a woman twice a week to go to work, do you count - whose gender pay gap? Do you count as a woman for the gender pay or a man?
JS: Well clearly in terms of the gender pay gap, members of staff will identify their gender in, you know, company records to HR typically, and the company will then produce the statistics accordingly.
RB: Anna, can I explain why this has become ...
AiW: Of course, yeah.
RB: ... a talking point within the Liberal Democrat Campaign? It's because you've promised complete reform of the Gender Recognition Act and effectively said you will remove the needs for medical tests and fees, that people - individuals - will be able to self-identify. Now, we ...
JS: I mean, to be honest, we - you know, we largely can currently, and - and I think that this - you know, formalises that, and it - you know, removes what are existing barriers that end up ... um, you know, creating discrimination on a very vulnerable group of people.
RB: And whilst we acknowledge that there is a group of people who are certainly vulnerable, need support and need certain protections, there is a significant body of women who feel that they will be deprived of safe spaces ...
AiW: Yeah, it's ...
RB: ... Would you like to pick up on that point?
AiW: Yeah, obviously we [respect people?] and everyone has the right to express themselves, people's choice of partner, spouse, clothing, should not be affected by their sex in any way. But under self-ID, what's to stop a male sex offender walking into the changing rooms and saying, d'you know what, today I identify a woman - as a woman? Should we be kind and let him?
JS: Um, so - I mean, in a sense - you know, I've gone into gym changing rooms, right? Er ... and I've never been asked for a certificate, right? I've never been asked. And I'm - so that's not what you currently have right now, if somebody ...
AiW: No, of course not.
JS: ... if anybody - if anybody goes into a changing room and is acting in a way that is ... is in any way kind of predatory or - um ... er, you know, antisocial, then the ... the institution, the gym or whatever it is, [you know?] the swimming pool, you know, should - should be able to take action on that basis, but what has happened - what has happened ...
AiW: But it's a safeguard - it's a safeguard, isn't it Jo?
JS: But the ...
AiW: At the moment we have women's spaces that are safeguarded from men, don't we? And the ...
JS: But can I - can I ...
AiW: Yes, go on.
JS: I was just going to say ... so, like ... I - the way in which this - this debate plays out, you know, I heard from people who are - um - women who might be women who look more masculine, women who might dress in a particular way, who have found, over the last months and years, with the way that this debate has been playing out, that they have suddenly, in a way that they haven't before, been challenged just for being in the women's loos. You know? Just for, you know, washing their hands at the sink and been challenged. And so I think we get into very dangerous territory if we start assuming that people ...
AiW: Well exactly. So, if we're leaving it up to women to have to police their own spaces - I mean, that's why it's a difficult issue, isn't it? Conflicting rights. We have women's spaces as a safeguard from men because we know men murder women, men rape women, voyeur upskirting has just become a crime, people put cameras in changing rooms ... that's why we have these women's spaces and the feelings of a small number of people do not in any way reduce the threat of men. So that's why we need to think and discuss and talk openly about this. And that's why I'm asking you. Whereas if we go straight for the reform that you're suggesting, and people like me are given abuse for even talking about this [inaudible] We're not - even if every single trans person in the world has - you know, is fantastic and wonderful and kind and brilliant, that does not reduce the threat from men in any way.
JS: And I suppose - er, the - the argument, if you like, is on what's the best way to provide that protection. Because the cause ...
AiW: Yes, but at the moment we're just making it all women's ...
JS: Well ...
AiW: ... women's toilets into unisex toilets. That's not a solution.
RB: I'm going to let Jo Swinson answer that and then we're going ...
AiW: Sorry.
RB: ... no, don't apologise Anna, I hear the passion in your voice, and then we're going to have to move it on, only to get onto other subjects.
JS: I mean, as I say, at the moment, you know, I - you know, I've never been asked for a certificate to prove - to prove my gender when I've been accessing any women's spaces and I - so it's not as if that is the way that we're going to resolve this issue. It's not as if with the law at the moment, that it's like, well that's fine, every time you go to the loo you have to like, swipe some card that is related to your birth certificate, right? That's not the society we have and frankly that's not one that I think any of us want. So we need to make sure that, you know, there are proper protections in place and, you know, obviously, against - you know, a group - I mean at the moment, you know, if a man, you know, wants to, you know, go into a women's space or a changing room or whatever, I mean we've all seen the 'Male operatives on duty', you know, go in with a bucket and be cleaning the - the, you know, cleaning the loos, right? So you know, if there's people who want to - to - to do - to act in that way, they should absolutely be dealt with. And I just don't buy the idea that we need to, um, you know ...
RB: OK ...
JS: ... further marginalise a group of vulnerable people, that that actually gives us any further protection. I don't think it is the right way to - to deal with the genuine concerns you raise.
RB: Anna, thank you very much ... [on to gender neutral school uniforms vs. faith schools and hijab]