Jo Swinson taking calls on Radio 5 at 9am

Hooray

Jo is an irrelevance now. Sal is now co-leader of the Lib Dem now that JS has lost her seat

President of the LDs

Who is Sal?

When I talked to a senior LD some time ago, they kept saying "I'll talk to Sal". And every time they came back they were more militant.

If I had to place money, my suspicion is that a lot of this is driven by Sal's influence.

She is very big on accessibility as she's disabled herself. And I personally think that is a big influence on her opinion.

I really would be intrigued to know who is the one driving this most, but the "I'll talk to Sal" thing did get me wondering what and who was driving it.

Does anyone know where the link is to the half naked trans'woman' in prison for violent sexual offences? I’d like to be able to reference it.

Discussion has moved on a bit but I'd love someone to ask Jo Swindon, next time she's on about toilets, whether there are any situations where it'd be ok and acceptable for a woman to challenge someone who appears to be male in a women's toilet. If they're not being overly predatory or violent, are there any women or girls in any situation for whom it'd be ok for them to question such a person for e.g. following them in there, asking them about tampons etc? And by "appears to be male" I include all men who don't ID as women. Any man.

Nobody seems to be asking why it should be easy to change a birth certificate, what a birth certificate is for or why it's necessary to record sex on a birth certificate in the first place.

Yes, these are important questions. If changing a birth certificate is so inconsequential, why is it so important to be able to do it quickly and easily? If changing it has further consequences, what are these and is it appropriate to make changing a birth certificate quick and easy to do?

I remember this being discussed over a year ago during the GRA consultation. TRAs who came on here to tell us off for being mean could never answer those questions.

If Jo Swinson had been paying attention she'd know the discussion isn't about showing a birth certificate to use a toilet. It's about the safety of women in prison and refuges. It's about privacy and dignity for women in hospital. It's about not being faced with an obviously male person when you've asked for a woman to carry out your smear test. It's about crime statistics showing an increase in the number of women committing violent crimes including rape. And so much more.

Jo seems very poorly informed.

Nobody seems to be asking why it should be easy to change a birth certificate, what a birth certificate is for or why it's necessary to record sex on a birth certificate in the first place.

Exactly.

Was it GIRES who hounded them?

Yes it was.

AISSG statement
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20061116120000/www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2000q2/msg00081.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20061116120000/www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2000q2/msg00081.htm

CAH group statement
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20061116120000/www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2000q2/msg00090.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20061116120000/www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2000q2/msg00090.htm

In Bernard Reed's 'sorry' letter he also says:

The organisations supporting intersex people and their parents are rightly protective of their members and were suspicious of my reason for approaching them. My pushing to establish a dialogue with them merely stiffened their resistance. Separately I have apologised to AISSG for being importunate towards them. I must leave it to them to decide what part of my recent correspondence with them to make public.

I have already expressed my regrets to ISNA and CISAE for their having been misled about GIRES' claims and intentions. I hope that my previous responses and this latest message will give them all the reassurance they need.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20061116120000/www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2000q2/msg00093.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20061116120000/www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2000q2/msg00093.htm

So that's at least 4 intersex orgs who politely told GIRES to fuck off in the year 2000.

It was this issue which led to the split between Press For Change and GIRES (GIRES was originally the charity arm of PFC):

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20061116120000/www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2000q2/msg00084.htm#" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20061116120000/www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2000q2/msg00084.htm#

Nobody seems to be asking why it should be easy to change a birth certificate, what a birth certificate is for or why it's necessary to record sex on a birth certificate in the first place.

If you change your name by deed poll or marriage you still have to list your old name on most applications that require an identity check (even if the existence of the old name has painful and traumatic associations). Yet changing a birth certificate is just a simple bit of admin?

She mentions this 3 times and suggests that she thinks this change is trivial and inconsequential.

"This is just about a change to birth certificates"

"What we're proposing is just a change in the way in which people can apply to change their birth certificate."

"What is being proposed about making it a smoother process for people to be able to change their birth certificate..."

Oh dear, did you miss the memo that this gaslighting isn't working any more, Jo?

The conversation has to move on from 'risk assessment' though.

Agree.

The Lib Dems are proposing legislation that fundamentally makes it impossible to define what a woman is - otherwise why else would Jo Swinson struggle so much when asked to talk about biological sex?

So whereas Jo Swinson shits on lesbians to make her BS arguments, Sal Brinton prefers to shit on intersex people.

Indeed.

I know one of the intersex societies vehemently resisted being dragged into this. Was it GIRES who hounded them? I wonder if they have changed their minds.

How you can keep invoking a chromosome abnormality to pressure women into validating the untruth that men have changed sex, God only fucking knows.

It makes these people sound unutterably dense.

Even when the interview....

Evee Ed n when the interview finishes he carries on after the break! Susanna Reid never says a word. She calls herself a feminist but loses her voice when this subject gets aired.

It's great how much sunlight this is getting, thanks Lib Dems!

The conversation has to move on from 'risk assessment' though. We have more rights under the EA than just not to be actually hit or raped.

Just watched this.

So whereas Jo Swinson shits on lesbians to make her BS arguments, Sal Brinton prefers to shit on intersex people.

God. They just fall over themselves to put the validation of men above women's actual safety, dignity privacy.

Talking about the rights? She's talking about the rights that men are demanding to validate something that is untrue, in order that they can access everything to do with women.

She really, really hated Piers pointing out that you could just stick up your hand and say you're a woman. She is not prepared to admit it.

And again, this determination to paint men who identify as women as deserving of everything they want, over every woman in the country.

She doesn't see it. She cannot see how misogynistic she is.

Watching this now. Never thought the day would come when I’d be grateful for Piers Morgan. He’s absolutely demolishing that idiotic woman.

Got it on!

ITV+1 now and you can catch Piers and Sal

Yes please, to the poster up thread who asked if someone could post a link to the GM.

Watching the UK election campain, particularly this debate, with great interest from the other side of the world.

Sarah Vine has dismantled her thoroughly in the Daily Mail.

Sunlight, let the sunlight in! Let them argue this stuff publicly, against normal people.

I really want the Lib Dem’s to be a big party in the UK and I agree with their Brexit policies, but I am so disappointed in JS. I cannot watch TV when she is. She is so inarticulate.