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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What is it like in India for women?

89 replies

MIdgebabe · 07/12/2019 09:01

So we have a defendant woman burned to death on the way to a trial

Shooing of defendants by police celebrated

Accusations of false rape apparently being very widespread ( this may relate to sex being classed as rape if marriage was promised and not delivered.)

It feels like a disgust of sex , policing of them peoples lives, with blame often put at the woman's feet but wondered if anyone had insights

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GCAcademic · 07/12/2019 16:04

It's a lot more than 5 different languages, there over 20 official languages, and multiple other more localised / tribal ones as well.

Fraggling · 07/12/2019 16:03

Oh oops massive xposts sorry!

Fraggling · 07/12/2019 16:02

It's massive
Billion people
My colleagues in bangalore told me, 5 different languages it was maybe
As an English person it's hard to conprehend

I've never been and only have colleagues words to go on so someone else who knows can say more.

The blokes I worked with from bangalore were all lovely.

GCAcademic · 07/12/2019 16:00

It is most definitely not a single culture. There is not even a unifying language. Each state has its own language, with only a few of them being Hindi-speaking. The south is completely different -both in terms of the ethnic origin of the peoples and in the linguistic roots of the spoken languages - from the north.

MangoesAreMyFavourite · 07/12/2019 15:58

Yes, there are very strong regional variations - for example each state has a different language. Geography and climate is very diverse.

Hinduism is the main religion but is practised differently in different areas, and of course a number of other religions - Muslims, Christians, Sikh, Jain's, Buddhist.... Caste, money, education, rural/urban all make a huge difference on day to day life.

For all the differences, there's loads in common too. A strong culture of respecting women lives side by side with the utter disrespect too.

MIdgebabe · 07/12/2019 15:33

did a whole I thought it was just some strange euphemism

I guess rapid society change might be part of this ?

Forgive my lack of knowledge,but how much can I consider India has having a single culture ? Are there strong regional variations? I haven't had a chance to travel much unfortunately

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Lamahaha · 07/12/2019 15:24

Another one! I really need to use the preview function more/

did a whole = dig a hole (for poo)

Lamahaha · 07/12/2019 15:19

I often slept outside the front door, on a man,

OMG, what a typo! Laughing my head off. A freudian slip??? Of course, it's a MAT, not a MAN I slept on! Grin

Uncompromisingwoman · 07/12/2019 14:58

Thank you for that lovely post Lamahaha.

There's a real challenge in discussing issues from other countries. As Fraggling points out, the situation for women isn't great anywhere - especially in the UK at the moment. It feels as if there's an unexpected global roll back of the rights and safety of women and children. Sad

GCAcademic · 07/12/2019 14:42

I have been to India four times, two of them on my own, and never had any issues with harassment. But I agree with whoever said that it's a country where, whatever you say about it, you could also say the precise opposite. There are undoubtedly some utterly depraved individuals there, as we see from the cases which make the news, but I found the Indian people I encountered (and I often stayed in homestays rather than hotels) to be unfailingly hospitable, generous and charming. We got stuck there for an extra week once during the ash cloud incident in 2010 and the couple whose guest house we were staying in treated us like family, tried to refuse payment for the extra week, took us around town to meet all their friends, out to dinner, etc. They were the kindest people I've ever met.

So, no, it's not all negative. Though the bad bits are really, really bad.

IdblowJonSnow · 07/12/2019 14:13

Lamahaha I'm fascinated by your account and wouldn't dispute it. I've heard of other women travelling alone there and having similar experiences.
I'm very well travelled and have had amazing experiences in countries that many would consider dangerous. I was hoping for that in India but on the whole disappointed.
It's good to hear it's not all negative.

barnet · 07/12/2019 13:45

My Dad is indian and I when I visited India alone when I was 17, to visit family around the country for 6 weeks, I was assaulted more times than I have been rest (40 years) of my life. On the other hand, within the family, the woman were always in charge and it was a matriarchial set up. It is a hugely complex country which I don’t understand, and although lovely relatives always ask when I will bring my kids, I really don’t think I want to.

CatintheFireplace · 07/12/2019 13:32

(appalled - I can't spell)

CatintheFireplace · 07/12/2019 13:31

Thanks for starting this thread. On top of the horrific violence, it was the tweets from the Indian film director that really shocked, apauled, and tbh baffled me:

Such views were on full display in a series of social media posts by the Indian film director Daniel Shravan, who, in response to the Hyderabad rape case, suggested that “rape is not a serious thing, but murder is inexcusable” adding that “the government should legalise rape without violence for the safety of women”. The posts, now deleted, addressed women, telling them: “If you are about to get raped, hand over a condom to the rapist and cooperate with him while he fulfils his sexual desire. That way he will not try to harm you.”

What the actual fuck? I presume this is an educated man? I just cannot fathom this attitude.

This is the article btw: www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/05/india-woman-set-on-fire-on-way-to-testify-against-alleged-rapists

SimonJT · 07/12/2019 13:23

@SomeVelvetMorning I grew up in Pakistan, but our family were punjabi so we had family in India due to partition. Different country, exactly the same problems. There isn’t enough money in the world to pay me to go back to Pakistan or India!

Lamahaha · 07/12/2019 13:04

I can’t quite get my head around it. On the one hand this is a country which has the highest percentage of female pilots in the world, and has had a prime minister (albeit nepotism) well before many Western countries did. And yet the violence towards women is off the scale, and often involves unimaginable depravity.

It's very hard to make any statement about India, for which the exact opposite is also true.
The attacks on women are horrific, the disregard for lower caste women is disgust me. But my own experience, as a woman, who loves India above all othe countries, is the reverse.
I first went to India in 1973, as a mixed race hippie, on the overland trail so, I was poor and had a dishevelled look about me. I went with a man but we parted company in South India and I went my own way. I lived in and near an Ashram. Mostly, I rented a small cottage without any amenities so, no running water, toilet, or electrcity. In the hot season, I often slept outside the front door, on a man, easily seen over the fence and easilily accessible. I suspect that back then it was different; I would not encourage any young woman to do this today, especially not a foreigner. I should add that though I have brown skin, my hair is slightly frizzy as my ethnicity is mixed race/Caribbean. Yet many Indians assume I'm Indian.
Anyway. I was on my own for 18 months, I used to wonder around the place, at night, sometimes on very lonely roads, returning in the wee hours (this was part of a spiritual ritual I used to practice).
As I didn't have a toilet for many months, I used to go out in a field and did a whole. Many Indian (men) did the same. I just chose a time when I'd be alone, yet still in full view.
I've been going almost every year since then. I've never once been addressed impolitely, much less attacked or rudely propositioned -- not once. I last went last year for three months, (I always go to the same place) and now that I'm an older women, I meet with almost reverence from men. I'm always addressed as Madam or Mataji or Mother or Amma. A friend of my son's, in his 40's, told me he ddn;t like to call my by my first name as it was disrespectful, and so he chose to address me as Mataji, which means Respected Mother (-ji is a suffix of respect).
I suppose it makes a difference that the place I go to is a traditional and ancient place of pilgrimage, where the original values of Hinduism tend to be observed, and that makes a difference.
When I first came to India as a young woman of 23, it was a revelation NOT to be seen, for the first time in my life, as a sexual object and not to have to see myself as such. In fact, it was in India that I finally found my bearings as a woman who was not beholden to men in any way, who no longer had to please men. I've only gone from strength to strength since then, and India is the place where I recharge my batteries. I'm going again in January, with my daughter and small granddaughter. My daughter has been going with me since she was a child and loves it as much as I do. As do many, many women I know.
There have indeed been some attacks on women, foreigners especially, in the last ten years or so. Society tends to go downhill rather than up as far as sexual mores are concerned.
But where India is concerned, the culture of deep respect for women IS there, even if buried, as can be found in the older texts and scriptures. Sexual continence traditionally is supposed to be upheld by young men. There is the tradition that a boy is taught to see every woman as his mother or sister except his wife. He is supposed to revere "shakti", and seek it in himself, and strive for humility rather than dominance. All of this I've seen lived out by many Indian men, and this would be the culture of the golden age Indians believe in. Traditionally, men are encouraged to choose celibacy after they've lived the householder's life and raised children. You will still find that a man is celebrated more for his ability not to need sex, than for his sexual conquests. At least in certain circles. Sexual overindulgence is seen as a weakness, not a strength that's one of the tenets of Yoga.

It's really hard to put into a few words a lifetime of experience, and there's a lot more I could say. I've travelled a lot in India and I've seen the best of that country as well as the worst I've even been into Indian brothels in Kamathipura, Mumbai's red light district, and been confronted with the devastating situation of child prostitution so I'm not coming to this with a blue-eyed vision.

Anyway, I could go on for pages but I won't, not only that I doubt it would change anyone's mind, but my daughter has just come to visit! Just bear in mind that India is an extremely complex culture, with multiple facets, and impossible to tie down.

SomeVelvetMorning · 07/12/2019 12:54

Thank youSimonJTI was aware of the caste system but I suppose had assumed that this had dies out somewhat in recent years?

Yes, that was very interesting SimonJT. I'm assuming you no longer live in India?

ginghamstarfish · 07/12/2019 12:43

For the reasons given above, probably a majority of rape victims do not report it ... so imagine what the real statistics must be.

Hefzi · 07/12/2019 12:41

Femicide has been the rage for a while - new technologies just make it easier. There is an imbalance between the sexes, in terms of numbers of men vs numbers of women, and combining this with regressive practices around dowries, restriction on marriage pool for religious reasons and other cultural practices means that there's a disproportionately large pool of unmarried men who, with the rise of smartphones and porn, have been egged on into seeing a woman as an entitlement. Not that we don't have that attitude in the UK, but if you are brought up in a culture where women have no value, and the other factors of culture and religion exacerbate the situation, it's hardly surprising that attitudes are more entrenched to the extent that "Eve - teasing" is barely considered an issue, and that rape is almost endemic in some localities.

Fraggling · 07/12/2019 12:38

Impossible to say.

Reporting rates low across the board.

Yes India has massive problems I just wanted to flag that stuff before we all say how awful it is over there, it ain't exactly great anywhere.

MangoesAreMyFavourite · 07/12/2019 12:32

Twenty-one dowry deaths are reported across the country every day. The conviction rate, however, is less than 35 per cent.

Dowry deaths still an issue despite the non bailable offence.... Data from 2015.

MIdgebabe · 07/12/2019 12:28

From the Internet, India is low in the tables of rapes per 100,000 , say 1/10 rate of most of Europe

Which doesn't seem to fit the narrative/vibe ...guessing it reflects low reporting rates?

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MangoesAreMyFavourite · 07/12/2019 12:25

Violence seems to be off the charts now but growing up there, it seemed pretty violent too even though I never saw anything first hand.

During my teens, the papers always had at least a couple of stories of brides being murdered dying in a kerosene stove blast while cooking. Since then the law has changed and if anything happens to the bride, the groom and his parents get 7 years non bailable jail terms automatically while the trial goes on. Suddenly stoves became so safe overnight but there's a bunch of people in jail saying "she's lying".

Nowadays people who have daughters (at least in cities, urban middle classes) seem to want them and educate them and give them freedom. But others don't have daughter's (abort the baby girls) and consider women as an underclass. It's the contrast between both sides of society that also causes the tension. My niece is a single child, well educated, working in Mumbai but surrounded by men who don't value women - so is extremely careful where she goes, with whom etc. And that's in Mumbai , supposedly one of the safest cities in India for women.

ChattyLion · 07/12/2019 11:47

Impact of prenatal technologies on the sex ratio in India: an overview

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4052431/

This very important (and deeply shocking) journal article - shows the lethal consequences of patriarchy for women- it links anti-female sex selection and infanticide, VAWG and a rise in attacks and rapes on women as well as all sorts of other abuses. Laws are already in place against many of these.

Fraggling · 07/12/2019 11:45

India is massive and diverse.

Situation in rural areas different to eg cities.

There's a billion people so stats like rape every 20 mins don't mean much. Needs to be per capita.
I wonder what the number per mins is here as well.

Yes they have huge problems around this and not to turn away from that, but just wanted to point the above out.

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