What is it like in India for women?

I found the film lion, set in India, based on a true story about lost/street children fascinating. It really makes you appreciate how big it is, how different it is and the poverty and it’s just heartbreaking.

Also padman about a man who found a way to make sanitary towels more cheaply to help village women who had to use rags and sleep outside when on their periods. This is in contrast to an educated rich young woman who helps him to promote them after his village are horrified by what he’s doing.

India has a lot of people (1 billion plus). How many transwomen are in India and how many women are forced to share toilets and female private changing-areas with them? Is there any data on this?

Goodness yes, all these reports of gang rapes, intimidation and murder of complainants, female infanticide and selective abortion just pale into insignificance compared to the vital question of how many trans women are there in India.

Should there be any doubt I'm being sarcastic.

when I am in India I go into ‘India mode’- dress differently, walk differently, follow safety rules so I am always conscious of safety.

Yes, it's amazing how much of your behaviour as an Indian woman instantly and unconsciously alters the moment you are in India. Always vigilant and hyper aware of everything and everyone around you. Conscious of the time ... Can't stay out too late. Making sure you're in a group. Making sure your clothing covers your body properly. Even in relatively liberal and metropolitan areas you still have to have your wits about you.

Cat, I'm as horrified as any of us here about the status of women in India and their abuse, rape etc. As I mentioned earlier, I once did a project that involved research in one one of Mumbai's (it was then Bombay's) worst red-light district and I got to see first hand the abominable brothels filthy, rat-and-lice-infested in which they most of them live (literally, in cages!) and I met some of the youngest children growing up in these circumstances and forced into the trade. At the time I was working with a Mumbai doctor who was helping and rescuing women, and I was hoping to raise funds for a home in the country for them; the land had been provided. Sadly, it never materialised. But at the time, I was involved, heart body and soul.

After a while though, the sheer magnitude of the task is so overwhelming that one (I, me) backs away. Just spending one day in an overcrowded, noisy Indian city is mind-numbing, soul-draining.

I suppose it's a problem that Indians themselves will have to solve. I read last night a Guardian article that said that Indian women have reached the end of their tether on this and there is a huge amount of anger. I think THAT is what is needed. The rage of Indian women. Trust me, they are not doormats and once mobilised I think they could bring about change.

Of course, India's very rich spiritual tradition is of no help whatsoever for these women, and I never meant to imply that it was! It's a problem that needs urgent attention. As the Mumbai doctor told me back then, the police and judges are all complicit. Bribery is a huge thing and the people behind it have loads of money. It's all so damn corrupt.

I really feel so helpless at the devastating plight of these women and I'm sorry if I gave the impression that "all they have to do is meditate". That's not what I meant at all!

I guess all I wanted to do was throw some light on the complexity of Indian society, show that there IS another side; which could be of help in the transgender fiasco the West is facing.

@Lamahaha, I do get what you are saying about India being an extremely complex country, and obviously you have spent a lot of time there and done a lot of religious study, but I don't really know what meaning "a rich tradition of deep respect for women" can have if, as you say "the average Indian woman won't ever experience it". It does seem bit dismissive of the experience of women who are actually raised in and live in India permanently, most of whom don't have the time or money to spend years studying religion.

Interesting about the trans stuff. It's issues like this (rape and violence against women in India) that make me "wtf" when some people talk about trans issues being the biggest threat to women's rights worldwide.

For some reason the spiel of 'India has a rich tradition of deep respect for women' always gets my hackles up. I, and most of the Indian women I know, have never really felt respected, safe nor viewed as fully human by our fathers, brothers and husbands or men in general.

But it's true, even if deeply obscured and buried under a mountain of misogynistic crap, so as to be practically invisible on a day to day basis. I know, because I've experienced, it but I think the average Indian woman won't ever, unfortunately.

I don't know about the Laws of Manu, but Vedic tradition teaches that there is absolutely no difference, on the consciousness level and in value, between man and woman. None whatsoever: we have the same consciousness and all apparent differences are merely a collection of man-made "attributes", ie mental stereotypes of false identity and roles, which we cling to, thinking they are "me".

Unlike Christian creationist mythology, that sees Eve as being made from a rib of Adam, Hindu mythology says that God, or original spirit, split into two, resulting in duality and life on earth; but that that original, non-dual spirit is still alive in all of us, the source of all happiness, strength and love; and it's that we seek to return to. (in a very simplistic nutshell!)

A lot of the problems that result in trans-identity could be better resolved through an understanding of Vedic philosophy/psychology, which seeks to answer the basic question of Who am I? What do I really seek?-- which is at the core of the confusion.

Children, and adults, who are taught to meditate ie turn within to find quietude and strength develop an inner stability which would help them/us safely navigate the turbulent and dangerous waters of modern society . This according to research at top universities, including Harvard.

Hi, I am Indian. As someone above said you can’t make any generalisations about India. I grew up and lived in a very big Indian city. I was always ‘careful’ but I used public transport to go to school from the age of 12, I had boyfriends, I dressed in Western clothes. But my parents are University professors, they are relatively wealthy and we were surrounded by ‘people like us.’ Some cities in India are also more unsafe than others of course. I don’t know how to describe it- yes India is unsafe but when I am in India I go into ‘India mode’- dress differently, walk differently, follow safety rules so I am always conscious of safety. India is deeply deeply misogynistic, casteist, communal and social divisions run deep. Most of my family (not my parents) do not remotely share any of my political views on any thing.

It's a beautiful country that I'd love to visit but I won't because of the horrific attitude and acceptability of violence against women and girls.

I don't know if things have genuinely gotten worse in India or if it's better reported now via social media and there's a growing number of younger women in urban areas who see feminist movements elsewhere and feel inspired to speak out as well.

I'd imagine the proliferation of porn via the internet in a very sexually repressed and prudish society that looks down upon women in general definitely contributes to the crisis.

There's an undercurrent of lawlessness and corruption of authorities in many areas. If you are raped, it can be risky going to the police for help because you might be raped again by them (since you're defiled now what's a few more men raping you).

If you come from a wealthy and high caste family, you might manage to avoid the horrible stuff as long as you stick to your bubble. Wealthy socialites and celebrities lead very sexually liberal lives that are a million miles away from, for example, a young woman in a remote village.
The disparity between rich and poor can be very wide.

For some reason the spiel of 'India has a rich tradition of deep respect for women' always gets my hackles up. I, and most of the Indian women I know, have never really felt respected, safe nor viewed as fully human by our fathers, brothers and husbands or men in general.

A lot of sexist attitudes and ideas are baked into various religious and cultural frameworks all over India, trickled down over millennia from works like the The Laws of Manu.

I'm really glad that I was lucky to be able to make the UK my permanent home. For all its faults, I'll still take living here and dating British men over life in India any day.

@Lamahaha you confused me greatly between mat and man until I saw your amendment :)

I thought it was an Indian practice I hadn't heard of.

I had a look in feminism as I couldn't find anything else on MN about the poor burned woman. She was so strong making a statement to police from her hospital bed in agony before she died.

India has a lot of people (1 billion plus). How many transwomen are in India and how many women are forced to share toilets and female private changing-areas with them? Is there any data on this?

Indian law recognises transgender people as belonging to a third sex, neither male nor female. They are called hijras and have their own distinct communities.

Each Indian state would have its own laws and regulations as well as culture regulating the treatment of transgender people. Below is a wikipedia link to just one state in South India, Tamil Nadu, which has an estimated 16000+ LGBT people; I don't know how that breaks up into gay and transgender. That's a tiny minority and I many if not most of them would not be "out" due to social stigma.
Knowing the utter chaos that dominates Indian public life, I doubt there are many stats available. However, according to this article TN is among the most progressive Indian states in LGBT rights.

As for sharing facilities: I don't know, but men and women are fastidiously segregated all over India in public places and it's hard to imagine an obvious man barging his way into a female area; when in groups, Indian women are known to get very aggressive, beating up men who transgress.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Tamil_Nadu

I had an experience in India where I narrowly avoided gang rape. My friend and I were staying in an apartment on the first floor part of a hotel in goa but deserted. On our last night she met a guy I was in the apartment alone packing for our night flight. Must have left the curtains open so I was seen by a large group of Indian men. They all silently tripped up the stairs to our apartment and banged on the door. I turned the lights off and sat in silence only a thin cheap door between me and gang rape while they banged on the door and shouted. I sat there until they left and my friend returned. I was literally gibbering with fear. I loved India but this underside is so frightening we couldn’t take our young daughters there.

India has a lot of people (1 billion plus). How many transwomen are in India and how many women are forced to share toilets and female private changing-areas with them? Is there any data on this?

I've only been to India on an organised tour. I chose that because so many of the women I known who've been to India (and not just India but Malaysia, Indonesia and north Africa) have come back saying 'amazing, wonderful, awe-inspiring' etc. Then they begin to let slip stories about being pestered everywhere they went, rape attempts and lucky escapes. One of my friends was drugged after being lured into a shop. She has no idea what happened to her and tries not to think about it because it would be too devastating. I wish women were a lot more honest about their experiences. It's almost as if they feel it's some kind of failure to admit that many places are frightening and dangerous for a woman.

I struggle when holidaying anywhere it's clear people are really poor and suffering. I was in South America a couple of years ago and in some ways the poverty was just as shocking as India. I traveled with friends who seem blind to it. It's a bit like feminism: you either 'see' it or you manage to ignore it. Once you've seen it it's impossible to go back to being blind.

We are, despite everything, very lucky to be here in western Europe.

That's very weird! I've never seen that before on MN. Maybe ask HQ?

Here is what they look like for me. Weird.

Not crossed out for me.

@Sarcelle, I don't see my posts as crossed out at all -- they appear as normal. Do you see only mine crossed out? Does anyone else see them crossed out? Strange!

I travelled in northern India in the early 90s with DH & a few friends, we were in our mid-20s. I have never been hassled so much in my life. Groups of young men would surround us & dare each other to approach & touch the women. It was horrible. It's a fascinating country & I'd love to see more of it, but I don't think I could bear to go back.

@Lamahaha Why are a lot of your posts crossed out? Interesting content but hard to read.

I come from a very safe country and it is very typical for people from my country that they go abroad and do stupid things under the assumption that all countries are as safe as my home country. I have never quite understood how you can be that stupid.

I first left home to go backpacking through some extremely unsafe countries on a faraway continent when I was 19. I was gone for over a year and did some extremely stupid and reckless things. My parents had no idea where I was most of the time. Then, when I was 23, I did the hippie trail to India and stayed there 18 months, living rough.

Yes, it was very reckless but both those trips are experiences I treasure to this day -- perhaps the most important episodes of my life. Maybe stupid, but I learned so much and matured so much as well. I'd say my "stupidity" might have been a dimension of a quest for understanding; I just wasn't after safety in those days.

I have to say, if my daughter had done what I did I'd have been out of my mind with worry!
But times have really changed. The world is a much more dangerous place.
In spite of the fact that we now have safety nets and communication tools such as internet, email, cameras, tracking, visa cards etc -- all of which were far in the future back then.

Is there any activism or charities dealing with this?

Yes, many, though mostly they are unknown outside of India or the region where they operate. I used to be involved with a charity that worked on several levels, including training women in various crafts such as tailoring and leaf painting and toy making, so that they could be independent it's still going strong, though I am no longer involved. I'm a supporter of another charity that helps kids, boys and girls, who have lost a parent and I sponsored one girl's education for many years she's now adult and has moved to Chennai. I met her a couple of times. It's a small private charity founded by a friend or mine, a German doctor.
India is actually teeming with NGO's, some of them quite scammy. The one I was with was founded by a group of Germans, who also canvassed for money in Germany, sold the products at Christmas markets etc, and did fantastic work -- literally raised up the area, building hospitals and a big school giving free English medium education to kids from nursery up to uni.
India can really get under your skin. I know hundreds of people who return year after year -- in spite of its bad reputation. If you know where you are going it is mostly safe.

I have a video I took when I was there last -- I was filming the area as I walked home, and the last part of my walk was through a quite deserted area, with nobody around. An Indian man on a bicycle rode past me. He then circled and rode past me again, looking back. And then he stopped, and addressed me. I was still filming, and only afterwards I realised that as I was alone, it could be regarded as an extremely risky situation.

Hmmm. I'm thinking I might try and post the video here. The only quibble is keeping it anonymous -- it's on my Youtube channel. I'll see what I can do.

I saw that tweet from the Indian film director. Not much comfort but when it was featured on the Daily Mail website I was heartened by the comments below the article. Lots of men condemning him, albeit they were not Indian, but just a general disgust.

We have had problems here with asian child abuse gangs and a lot of hidden abuse of females that goes on in asian households. There seems to be a general contempt for women in parts of asia that travels with them where they settle elsewhere. That is not to say that we do not have our own problems but in the main we have a voice and can shout out.

I am fascinated by India and have always wanted to visit but I wouldn't now. I would be a bit scared but mainly I don't want to go anywhere where there is such a fundamental abuse and degradation of females.

Is there any activism or charities dealing with this?

25 or so years ago one of my best friends went to India with her idiot boyfriend for six months. We seriously feared that she wouldn't return. That he would dump her somewhere or they would get into a situation they couldn't handle, for they were both so naive. We all said "funny stuff". Haha! In six months we'll be like: "Hey Dick, where is Tracy?" And he'd be like: "Who?"(Not their real names)

When they came back A) she was very, very skinny. Like: the inmates from the concentration camps skinny. She hadn't realized herself until she saw how shocked we all were.
B) She was skinny because she had gotten ill and he had actually tried to dump her in the flea pit hotel they were in, in the middle of no-where and go on alone, as it was boring there and boring that she was ill.

I come from a very safe country and it is very typical for people from my country that they go abroad and do stupid things under the assumption that all countries are as safe as my home country. I have never quite understood how you can be that stupid.

Maybe she said main languages!

Thank you for info, really interesting.