What is it like in India for women?

@SomeVelvetMorning if you want to talk about marital rape, that has only been illegal in the UK by virtue of case law since 1992 and legislation in 2003!

It’s pretty clear @username12756 was referring to Kerala - she even says other parts of India will vary.

I think your comments show that you may not understand the vastness and diversity of India as a sub continent. Someone from Kerala is worlds apart from someone from Punjab in terms of ethnicity, language, culture, possibly religion. And the figures and articles you keep quoting are based on India as a whole!

Of course it’s got absolutely horrendous parts to it but there are still very matriarchal societies.

@GCAcademic No I am from Kerala, but Meghalaya also has a matriarchal society and it’s a lovely place to visit!

@SomeVelvetMorning I didn’t mean the whole of India, of course, the small state of 34 million people or thereabouts I am from is quite progressive. Some of the empowerment initiatives I now see in the UK has been happening there for decades. As was mentioned above, it’s not a competition and there is good and bad everywhere.

I went to India travelling around 20 years ago as a backpacker. I was sexually assaulted multiple times. None of them were that serious though I did have to physically fight off one guy as he tried to pull my trousers off. I put it down to me being foreign and therefore assumed to be up for it at all times.

What all the reports from India have made me realise is that local women were probably subject to exactly the same behaviour and that I was in a lot more danger than I realised.

Wrong link

www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenewsminute.com/article/keralas-rape-problem-alarming-numbers-indias-most-literate-state-42609%3famp

The shooting in OhHJ'S link seems more related to idiotic levels of lack of gun control than misogyny as such.

There is rape, domestic abuse and misogyny all over the world

I didn't say there wasn't.

It’s not a competition then why post comments that an unidentified part of India is better at empowering women than the UK complete with supporting statistics that are extremely questionable?

www.thenewsminute.com/article/man-hacked-death-broad-daylight-near-phoenix-mall-bengaluru-111213

And marital rape is not a crime under the Indian penal code unless the couple are separated.

Just seen this. Poor woman.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-50684475

In terms of education, Kerala has an extremely high literacy rate for both women and men. It's common for women to be in professional roles in the engineering, medical and financial sectors. Kerala has historically had a strong influence of communist and very left wing political parties.

That said, women can still experience pretty abysmal treatment behind closed doors. My father comes from the region as do a number of my friends from school and people we know from my parents' social group. Some fairly abusive and coercive patterns in the stories the women tell one another when the men aren't around.

I think she meant KERALA her home state. Not India as a whole.

There is rape, domestic abuse and misogyny all over the world. It’s not a competition.

Women empowerment there is miles ahead of what I see in the UK, with tonnes of women politicians, doctors and lawyers

The intake into medicine, law and veterinary medicine for women at university has been over 50% for years. It might even be as high as 60%. In these professions the current levels are pretty much equal. On mps progress is needed but Holyrood has 35% female members.

I don't know how you can seriously talk about "women empowerment" in a country which has one of the highest female foeticide incidents in the world.

Can you point to a single incident of a rape victim being set on fire when travelling to court in the UK? Whereas this awful incident is yet another one.

Is this "empowering" for lower class women?

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/jan/14/indian-village-where-child-sexual-exploitation-is-the-norm-sagar-gram-jan-sahas

Hulo - Ah, OK. I did wonder about Kerala, but am a bit confused about the situation for women in that state, because there's been a lot in the news lately about women not being allowed in certain temples.

I would love some further suggestions for reading if you have time to post some. What I'd be really interested in reading about is the history of women's / feminist movements in India.

No I suspect she’s from Kerala?

I teach gender in India. Happy to post some links to stuff to read at the end of the day if anyone is interested.

Hope you enjoy the book GCAcademic! I think it was written in the early 2000s so maybe a bit dated in some areas, but there's a lot of info about Indian culture and Hinduism that I wasn't aware of, so I found it an enlightening read.

I had completely forgotten about her until this thread. Realised she has a bunch of blog posts and articles on her website that I haven't come across before, so I've started reading them. :)

Thanks for the book recommendation, Nonnymouse1337 - have ordered a copy.

Username - are you from Meghalaya? I would love to visit that region, it looks fascinating.

I grew up in India and I have to say the attitude towards women depends on your province, city, income levels, community, school etc etc. It is a HUGE country of thousands of cultures and tens of thousands of mini-cultures.

I grew up in a matriarchal society where women inherited family wealth, chose their husbands and with 95% of girls going to school, more girls than boys in universities and females outnumbering males. (You can easily figure out where this is). Women empowerment there is miles ahead of what I see in the UK, with tonnes of women politicians, doctors and lawyers. So if you ask me about women issues in India, I would say I faced none.

That doesn’t go for several other communities in India, though.

Oh a slight tangent ... One of my favourite books is Sex and Power by Indian feminist Rita Banerji. She raises some interesting ideas around the conflicted relationship that Indian culture has with sex and women.

Social mores cycle through extremely conservative and punitive to very liberal and hedonistic and back.

She looks at different eras - Vedic, Buddhist, Colonialist, the Golden period etc.

Some excerpts from the book can be read here
sexandpower.wordpress.com/excerpt/

I have travelled all over India as an older women...and usually pretty invisible . I go because there is a sense of optimism from people that makes no sense but is inspiring. Have met with fantastic strong feminist women running NGOs and organisations in red light areas, and in rural villages which are educating, supporting and setting women up in small businesses and even traditionally male employments. They face considerable personal danger to do so. The caste system is strong and the dowry system still exists even in more educated states such as kErala. But over the years women are standing up and speaking more, groups of women are tackling the male dominated local villages. Porn on mobiles is endemic as even the poorest men have mobile phones. But in Delhi there are women only train carriages...calm places where women can relax...many wouldn’t be able to work if they didn’t exist. The contrasts are huge rich /poor, caste, and male and female. But most people are charming and polite, when not hassling for tiny money.
My experiences of the Hijras is not good....on trains for example , they are bullying men in drag who pass up and down threatening people for money. I have only had one incident of physical touching and I managed to land a punch...later saw same man arrested. I was lucky. What is really difficult is the overwhelming numbers of men on the streets..feels very unbalanced. And women tend to stay home. But I personally feel safer in India than in most Uk cities these days( while recognizing my privilege of course) and I know this is is not true for millions of women there.

I didn't know that. I'm not interested in yoga. Entry level woo really.

Even if it were true - and followers of every patriarchal religion will gush about how noble it isif you look deeply enough into obscure texts- it matters not one iota in terms of the daily struggles of a woman's life

This seems spot on. Maybe the women who were raped, burned, murdered, forced into prostitution weren't just as spiritually enlightened as you.

Lamahaha I don't deny that if everyone practised their religious faith and spiritual beliefs well, then a lot of societal problems would resolve themselves.

I am a very logical person so I struggle to understand how people use spirituality to improve themselves, but clearly it does help many people around the world find acceptance and resilience and a way to deal with complex and conflicting emotions and personal issues.

Maybe it's because I have little to no religious leanings that I find it very hard to relate to such approaches.
If the practice of such beliefs was such a powerful and transformative force for good, human society would be very different by now.

I'm afraid this caused serious eye- rolling for me.

Yes, it's an unusual perspective, especially for Westerners, which doesn't make it any less true. I know/have known such men.

Did you know that one of the goals of Yoga, so popular in the West, is to learn how to contain sexual energy? An aspect that is routinely down-played by woke young practitioners, who prefer to go in the opposite direction!

But where India is concerned, the culture of deep respect for women IS there, even if buried, as can be found in the older texts and scriptures. Sexual continence traditionally is supposed to be upheld by young men

I'm afraid this caused serious eye- rolling for me.

In which case, it's of no use to Indian women then, right? It's reality and practicality that matters to women on a daily basis, in India as well as around the world, not religious theory.

Actually, it CAN be of use. Not religious theory, but a firm and resolute practice. It can help with the burdens of daily life. I know, because I've known such women. You ask where they find that resilience - maybe from within themselves?

But I don't want to come across as glibly dismissing the problems. I am aware, more than perhaps is coming through my posts. And I see that I'm already in danger of being grossly misunderstood!

Great post. Very much agree about the religious stuff.
All religions are ‘based’ on good elements but are played out and twisted beyond all recognition by patriarchy and the need for power. Actions speak louder than words and the words are irrelevant if the actions do the opposite.
Yet people still cling to the words and thus continue to allow the actions.

so as to be practically invisible on a day to day basis. I know, because I've experienced, it but I think the average Indian woman won't ever, unfortunately.

In which case, it's of no use to Indian women then, right? It's reality and practicality that matters to women on a daily basis, in India as well as around the world, not religious theory.

Indian women are patronised enough by their men - politicians, religious leaders and in general. It's usually the men who extoll how great Indian culture is and how there's lots of respect shown in the Hindu scriptures towards women. Even if it were true - and followers of every patriarchal religion will gush about how noble it is if you look deeply enough into obscure texts - it matters not one iota in terms of the daily struggles of a woman's life.

What Indian women need is not more religious interpretation, but secularism and a change in deep seated mindsets.

Yes, there's a lot of variation between regions and communities. Yes, there's lots of amazing culture and history and art (and food - oh my god, the food!). Yes, there are lots of good Indian men who are deeply concerned about the safety of women. However, there are so many other aspects that women are subjected to from cradle to grave. It's not even about sexual violence.

I lived in a girls hostel for my undergraduate degree and we were studying for our finals. There was this bubbly, lively girl who was very chatty and didn't seem that keen on getting the best academic scores. She always came across to me as carefree and a bit dim, while the rest of us studied hard and stressed out about our grades.
She burst into our room one evening singing some film tune and dancing. We laughed and someone jokingly shouted at her to get back to studying for the finals. Didn't she care about her results?
Her light-hearted response was so profound that it will be forever etched in my memory.

"What's the point in getting first class? We will all be married off after our graduation anyway."

Everyone laughed except me. It was meant to be funny but it made me so profoundly sad and angry because it encapsulated the reality for many Indian women. No matter what your educational and professional achievements, at the end of the day, your only worth in society is being married off and giving birth to children.
She was smarter than the rest of us because she understood the patriarchal rigged game.

The vast majority of Indian women don't have passports to a better or different life. Visitors always have the option to go back to the comforts and freedoms of their home country.
I'm glad you've had wonderful experiences in India. It's not all doom and gloom for sure, but being born and raised in Indian culture is a very different experience. The weight of societal expectations is a very heavy burden to bear, and the fact that so many women manage to do so and still have a smile on their face is something that has always impressed me.
I don't have that kind of resilience so I tried to find a way to leave it all behind.

@somevelvetmorning

I KNOW RIGHT?!?!!

It’s a big country, and that means that the laws and enforcement which apply in the big cities can be missing in the rural north. The village councils have done some shocking things.
www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/an-indian-teenager-was-raped-by-her-father-village-elders-had-her-whipped/2016/05/09/f6d6c840-c531-11e5-8965-0607e0e265ce_story.html