Accused of cherry-picking trans horror stories

I assume it is against mumsnet rules to assert all trans women are abusive, or violent offenders? Thats shows clearly that there is an anti-trans bias at work.

It is please report where you see that, because I've missed it.

You said yourself that nefarious men would take advantage. I pointed out this is because of TW's demands without taking the faintest consideration of the impact on women.

You're pissed off that women mind?

You think the answer is women do..... what exactly?

Free

It is increasingly difficult for anyone to study criminality and recidivism in the trans populations because trans activists through regulatory capture have made it nearly impossible to figure out who is trans.

One of the Things feminists in Scotland are campaigning for is to accurately report both natal sex AND gender identity in the census so that among other things we can at least potentially track these things. And in addition be able to do things like provide specialist accommodations and services for trans people (like setting up sufficient gender clinics etc).

Meanwhile trans activist groups are advising their constituents to lie about their natal sex on census forms. Which will ultimately lead to fewer or inappropriate services for trans and non trans people. We might ask who is really being transphobic and hateful toward trans people here?

Also the author of the study you’re talking about did “clear up” that she did not mean for people to say trans women are all criminals and that there could be other reasons why males who identify as women have criminality rates which are not significantly different from natal males / are significantly different from natal females. Which, yeah, duh. But she did not “debunk“ her own stats. The fact remains that all of the very limited (thanks to trans activists) research we have points to no effect on overall criminality based on gender identity among natal male people.

That is not to say that all males are criminals obviously, regardless of how they may identify. That’s how statistics work. Trans activists are asserting without evidence that trans women are no different from natal women in patterns of violent criminality then prove it with data. Same with sports.

One could look at the evidence and say, well, then sex segregation should be abolished because it’s discriminatory. I think this is a morally defensible position. I personally have not experienced male violence and I don’t mind being exposed / naked in front of males or females. However based on feedback from women here I respectfully disagree because clearly many women still require single sex accomodation. I encourage you to listen to women as I’ve done. I never saw the problem being relatively sheltered. But, now I do.

In any case very few trans activists are taking this position. Instead they are arguing that all males who identify as women should be granted access to women’s sex segregated spaces and services, fully on their own say so and any woman who protests to male bodies in her spaces is a bigot who should mind her own business. That is, trans activists believe that trans women deserve rights above and beyond those of any other male person. And not after working hard to assimilate and “pass” so they wouldn’t make a fuss. No. They want special additional rights over and beyond what other males are entitled to immediately when the idea of being a woman crosses the lips (or thumbs) of the male person. Without question. Without debate. And when a case occurs which shows that this can lead to problems for women that would not otherwise occur it’s called cherry picking. No. Women are allowed to have and to enforce out own boundaries.

And I do get that times are shit for normal transwomen. It's awful.

But I think a normal man, for example, would understand that late at night, if he's walking down the street behind a lone woman, the decent think to do would be to cross to the other side of the road, and dawdle, so she doesn't feel followed.

It's about decency and respecting others' feelings. So it's shit for transwomen, but not because of women who want and need their own spaces, but because of tragic loser pervert dangerous men.

Are you kidding the penny is firmly glued to the pavement.

Yeah, I thought I'd be polite.

Sorry, I've not read the thread.

My feelings (and thus reply to the question in the OP) are these:

Well, these 'cherry picked' examples do exist. And yes, there are of course transwomen who are as much danger to women as any other female woman. And yes, they just want to peacefully get on with their lives. And of course it's wrong to pick out one example and use that to judge all members of the group. But that's not the issue. The issue - and my question to those who go make the cherry picking comments - is this:

How do we tell the difference between the Karen Whites/wax my balls/creepy weirdy men, and a bog standard, harmless, normal transwoman?

And is it OK to use women as bait to lure the dangerous men out?

And is no one harmed if they are letched over, or stared at in a changing room, as long as they aren't touched?

Is that how we tell the difference, put them to the test?

Are you OK with that?

Do you get to decide and judge those who feel differently about themselves, and about vulnerable adults, and children?

yes these could be nefarious men pretending to be trans women, that is not the fault of trans women.

Well it's not the fault of female people either, is it? It's TW insisting that male people must be allowed into female spaces regardless of how they look, and that they cannot be challenged for ID or proof of transition that's caused this issue for female people.

TW need to take responsibility for this. How are they proposing to do this in a way that protects the female people this is going to negatively affect?

The worlds moved on, this endless cycle of mumsnet transphobia, contrarianism, and clique-building is really sad to see grown ups acting this way.

Why don't you try again and be a bit ruder and more patronising this time? Guaranteed to win hearts and minds that is. No, the world has not moved on, that's a chant like 'TWAW' that's supposed to convince the general public it's too late. The average person in the street has no idea what a TW is, or what any of the jargon means, or what a GRC is, and most of them are horrified. What you have on MN is what happens when ordinary women get educated on what's happening to women's rights.

The trans lobby is responsible for this damage to women, they need to own it. If they won't, and they're not interested in the impact their demands have on female people, then female people are going to get increasingly pissed off and resistant with them. Why on earth wouldn't they?

And grown up? Seriously? Excluding vulnerable women from any services so males have more choice is 'grown up' thinking is it?

Is the penny in the air yet...?

Are you kidding the penny is firmly glued to the pavement.

a convoluted juggling of figures to show trans women are male

You don't need figures to show this, it's factual, trans-women are male, this isn't as you put it quack 'pseudoscience'.

Um, my link that one in fifty prisoners identifies as trans was according to the annual report by Peter Clarke, the chief inspector of prisons.

yes these could be nefarious men pretending to be trans women,

How can you pretend to be trans, when the only criteria is you are, if you say you are!

Is the penny in the air yet...?

A good sign that someone us spreading propaganda is the endless use of blogs as sources.

Medium pieces, wordpress blogs etc where sophistry and manipulation to an agenda is abound.

You can simply read up this thread and see the defensive reactions of people invested in a one-way nefarious narrative.

The only trans people that are counted in prisons in the UK, are those that satisfy two requirements, to be long-term, and to have requested a case review outing themselves.

yes these could be nefarious men pretending to be trans women, that is not the fault of trans women.

There is not a single statistic that exists outside of right-wing opinion piece imaginations, and blogs that suggest trans women have anything remotely like 'male criminality'.

That evidence simply does not exist, only evidence to the contrary.

But some people really really want you to believe Propaganda outlets like fairplay for women, whose whole raison detre is anti trans, claims to have evidence and a convoluted juggling of figures to show trans women are male, despite the M.O.J. making exceedingly clear with the F.O.I. none of those figures are reliable.

But then the conspiracy theorists and anti-trans brigade tell you EVERYONE is desperate to push through trans rights, and it is being forced through despite EVERYTHING saying it is bad and wrong.

Ohhh aren't we all brave standing up against the scourge!!

This is precisely the thinking of people susceptible to conspiracy theory and quack pseudoscience, and propaganda.
They end up isolating themselves from the rest of the world and actual reality.

The worlds moved on, this endless cycle of mumsnet transphobia, contrarianism, and clique-building is really sad to see grown ups acting this way. Some people are really super-unhappy I guess.

Sounds like you’re just telling the truth OP, of what’s been reported publicly and you are keeping safeguarding of women and girls front of mind. Why would anyone object to that?

When people ask about this, I think you have to go back a step and ask why we have certain sex segregated services. They will generally answer two things, possibly safety, and possibly privacy.

If they say safety safety, that's easy enough, you point out that the safety issue for trans people is the same, that most trans men are sexually interested in women, that they still have a penis, that they are physically capable of rape. You can also point out that the evidence we have seems to suggest they are as likely to assault women as regular men. This all applies to the laws as they stand now, with the further addition of self-id there isn't even any necessity for a transwoman to "present" as a women, and there are already some who do not - it simply becomes impossible to manage the safety question.

If they say it's not about safety, it's more about privacy, and they feel that's a cultural imposition that would be better left behind, I think you can query that. I would point out that while they may be lucky enough not to feel threatened in such situations, that is probably because of their particular experiences. I would point out that women's facilities became common at all because women could not safety go out, and that this is still a problem in many parts of the world. You might ask why they think this is something the UN talks about in refugee camps, or why young women in some countries avoid school when menstruating because of lack of private washrooms. You could point out that these rules also protect people in more vulnerable positions, like prisons, or ensure that women in male dominated workplaces have privacy accommodations.

The question of racial profiling is relevant, in that you can attach statistically significant numbers to certain types of criminal behaviour and race in some places. I think the answer there is complicated, for me in part it's that the question of separate facilities for omen isn't just about risk, maybe not even primarily, it's about privacy, which has no equivalent with race. I think its also relevant though that in that case, we are impinging on the rights of people, doing searches etc, and that requires a high bar for allowing it. In this case though, we are not saying trans people can't use the toilets, they just need to use the right ones for their sex, we aren't restricting them in any way.

I suppose the last thing I'd say is that if it really doesn't matter, we should have no sexed facilities at all. Some people think that, at least about some places - many draw a lie around places like prisons even so. Those people are at least being somewhat consistent but I'd point out that unisex facilities have more problems.

No reliable data? What about these?
www.bbc.com/news/uk-42221629
"125 transgender inmates in England and Wales, in a prison population of 85,513."
60/125 are sex offenders

That's from 2017.

As of 2019 supposedly 1 in 50 prisoners are transwomen by self-ID.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/

Or are you saying they don't count because prisoners are lying about being trans for perks/to get access to female victims, which no shit. Kinda the point.

The world outside of mumsnet fwr is unrecognizable to most of the gibberish in here

I shouldn't think my daughter's classmates are on Mumsnet. They still feel uneasy at the thought of a child they knew as a boy last month now being 'a girl' and entitled to use their changing rooms and loos.

As I mentioned on here last week, that includes a girl who has been raped and really, really doesn't want to share facilities with any male however charming.

But because of the brainwashing going on in school, they feel both uneasy and guilty for having those feelings.

Thanks a lot.

freethegenders

How do you account for one in fifty prisoners being transgender then? Given the definition of trans is anyone who says they are. Unless you have a different definition, of course.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/amp/

Biology, reality and not excluding women from society isn't 'ideology' love. It really isn't. Nor is it progressive.

If you're on the side of fairness and inclusion, you've got a bit of a hole in your logic there.

Bollocks, Freeethegenders.

I have no more beef with transwomen than with any other man. But 'any other man' can get pointedly told to bugger off out of the ladies' shower block (and in fact I asked one to leave yesterday - he was a perfectly pleasant chump standing outside his small daughter's shower but I didn't want him there, thanks).

You cannot convince every woman that male people are 'really women', because they really aren't.

So their presence in female facilities is intrusive, their presence in female sleeping areas is the same problem as other men, and their presence in female sports is just as unfair.

there is zero reliable data on how many trans people are even in prison

Which is very odd, don't you think?

@freethegenders Please go ahead & report any transphobic posts here, or elsewhere on MN. As feminists, we'd be very grateful to you.

Oh, and now you've plopped and before you go, can you define the terms "woman," "female," "man," and "male" without resort to historically specific and culturally constructed stereotypes?

Human beings cannot change sex, it's not possible, so men will always be men. Women will always be women. I wouldn't pick out individual examples of unscrupulous men using self id to assault women.
The sexes are segregated for a reason, what reason would that be?
I'm not living in fear or horror that trans people will attack me. I know that statistically I'm more likely to be sexually assaulted by a man. Any trans status is completely irrelevant. It's men that rape and assault women and girls, I don't want to share personal space with men or boys. It's my right as a woman to have sex segregated space, nobody has the right to override my right or give it away.

@freethegenders

You seem upset. Hug?

Even on this thread theres lots of propaganda being layered, for instance the idea that trans women retain a 'male criminality' has been debunked by the author

"The author"? Who is this? There is not one single "author" responsible for statistics.

Read this article.
medium.com/@evastanford/transwomen-sexual-offenders-a-closer-look-6c507d9e2414

Thats how organising an ideology works.

Being transphobic is exactly the same as being racist, and homophobic etc.

It really is that simple.

As with every single social change bringing equality to maligned groups there will always be propagandists pushing back.

Even on this thread theres lots of propaganda being layered, for instance the idea that trans women retain a 'male criminality' has been debunked by the author, and it relates to 20-40 years ago, the F.O.I. request by fairplay for women was ridiculously flawed and convoluted to suggest half of trans women in prison long-term were violent offenders, there is zero reliable data on how many trans people are even in prison or and men gaming the system.....which should NEVER be held against trans people, that is merely propping up the literal toxic patriarchy.

Fairplay for women are literally a propaganda group, transphobia is rife in the uk, clearly and obviously it is rife on these boards, which have been quite successfully colonized by many right-wing MRA groups to attack trans people, and troll women.

Most of the stuff on these boards are bunk propaganda.

It's really that simple.

You are picking isolated cases to attack a class of innocent people, to feed your own bias and bigotry.

The world outside of mumsnet fwr is unrecognizable to most of the gibberish in here.