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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How can you be non binary if there are more than two genders?

92 replies

Fairenuff · 30/11/2019 11:56

If you actually self identify as non binary, what are you really saying?

Obviously you don't believe there are just two sexes, male and female, as otherwise you would agree that you are whichever sex your body actually is.

But if you believe there are several genders then you can't be non binary because genders are not binary.

I think that if you say you are non binary you are, by default, admitting that there are just two sexes and you acknowledge that you are one of them.

So how is any of that part of being transgender?

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Fairenuff · 08/12/2019 13:46

I agree that gender ideology makes us all pansexual and all trans. So we are all the oppressed minority which is why no-one seems to understand us.

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merrymouse · 08/12/2019 11:55

Many pangender folks are sensitive to this, however, and identify only as “all available genders.”

How do you intrinsically know what all the available genders are?

Confused
TinselAngel · 08/12/2019 11:53

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/aeon.co/amp/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

This is a great article on this.

popehilarious · 08/12/2019 11:51

Been thinking about this. I'm genuinely happy to accept there are numerous genders - whatever the word is meant to mean - as it suggests that it's not really linked to sex.
Therefore "non-binary" is a bit weird.
If someone said their race was "neither black nor white" I would think they were appallingly dismissive of other races and the reality of race. Un-woke, basically.

popehilarious · 04/12/2019 13:32

see also this (written by a man I assume)

How can you be non binary if there are more than two genders?
How can you be non binary if there are more than two genders?
Ereshkigal · 04/12/2019 13:10

It's my very favourite EF article.

popehilarious · 04/12/2019 13:08

^^oh, that is wonderful

Ereshkigal · 04/12/2019 13:01

No cultural appropriation kids!

Multigender identities can encompass many gender identities at once. If any one of the genders included is culturally appropriatedd^, then the overarching identity also becomes problematic.
Pangender peoplee^, in a literal sense, identify as all genders. The problem is that “all genders” includes culturally specific genders that must not be appropriated.
Many pangender folks are sensitive to this, however, and identify only as “all available genders.” Some have even moved away from the term toward the word maxigender (maxi- as in “maximum”).

Ereshkigal · 04/12/2019 12:58

There are not 99 genders, how exclusionary! There are as many genders as there are people who have ever lived.

everydayfeminism.com/2017/02/what-it-means-to-be-multigender/

Dangerfloof · 04/12/2019 12:39

This may have already been said, if so ignore.
So there are 99 genders, yet I dont know any one who is one of the other 97 genders so epicene is apparently a gender, yet I dont know one or of one. Ok I've not googled for any. But I think I know a lot of people, I work with hundreds of people. I would have thought one at least would be special enough.
It appears to mostly be mtf in the news, occassionally ftm comes up on my social media (usually how good looking are these) but never a rare species of gender? Weird huh?

Devereux1 · 04/12/2019 12:07

@ahagwearsapointybonnet I didn't know that. I tend to reject everything from the trans movement now.

I am pleased to report there were no men in dresses with male genitilia in the ladies, anyway. Everyone seemed to recognise pink for real women, blue for real men.

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 04/12/2019 11:49

Given how the trans movement has adopted pink and baby blue (for their flags and charming baseball bats...), and that some are now suggesting a boy who likes pink things and dresses must be trans (and vice versa to a lesser extent - hating pink maybe, rather than preferring blue), it certainly seems to represent "gender" for them, rather than sex...
So if I saw that on toilets, I would have my doubts about who would be expecting/who the venue expected to use each one.

Devereux1 · 04/12/2019 10:08

But to me this cafe is woke as fuck. They have detached sex from the segregation of toilets and used personality instead.

Interesting you view it that way. Because I don't see any 'personality' in blue and pink at all. I just see a visual signal that people once associated with sexes, in the same way that yellow and black are used to represent danger, red for stop, green for go etc, something that the woke army hate us using.

terfsandwich · 04/12/2019 01:40

I was in a cafe somewhere a couple of weeks ago and popped to the loo. One loo just had a pink retangle on it, the other blue. No words. I instantly knew which one to go in, didn't feel offended - and I was a real tom boy growing up, my profession is very male dominated etc*

I smiled when I saw those loo doors, they reminded me of nicer times, and I also thought what guts that cafe must have to still have them up given the current climate

But to me this cafe is woke as fuck. They have detached sex from the segregation of toilets and used personality instead.

Ereshkigal · 03/12/2019 22:24

She said those affected by the government's current passport rules "face a choice between the degrading experience of applying for, bearing and using a passport that does not accurately reflect their gender identity, or forgoing the use of a passport at all."

People who do not consider themselves as exclusively male or female include members of the trans community and intersex people.

The UN says up to 1.7% of the world's populationon*^ are born with intersex traits - about the same number of people with red hair.

My bold in the first paragraph. From the article about gender neutral passports. See how they and the BBC conflate non.binary, trans and intersex.

mindproject · 03/12/2019 22:11

I honestly don't care about any of this.

There are men.
There are women.
There are people who like to pretend.

That's it.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 03/12/2019 22:07

Non binary is nonsense on stilts.

I met a self declared enby at university and nodded sagely as xie explained xir pronouns.

Lovely young man wearing a frock.

Fairenuff · 03/12/2019 21:30

I think if we are going to go down the route of having gender on official documents, there should be a box for sex too. So people could tick, for example, Sex: Female, Gender: Non binary.

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SirVixofVixHall · 03/12/2019 20:47

TowelNumber42 You can’t possibly have Einstein’s brain as i have it. Or at least I have it on Mondays, when it is Einstein a go-go here. (pop reference, kids). What equals mc squared again ?

merrymouse · 03/12/2019 20:41

Either there is a reason to give details of a person's sex on a passport (or any other document) or there isn't.

If the information is completely superfluous, just don't ask for it.

I can't think of any situation where it would be necessary to give details of somebody's gender identity, mainly because nobody seems able to explain what a gender identity is.

Devereux1 · 03/12/2019 20:33

Do you think I will also be able to identify as German in postwar of British at the same time?

Yes, because nationality is just a spectrum... it was all one land mass millions of years ago, nations are just social constructs created with man-made borders... blah blah blah... so yes, can we all self-ID as different nationalities now?

MIdgebabe · 03/12/2019 20:29

Well if the passport is meant to show gender identity not sex, I will get mine changed

And if every GC woman did the same it might at least raise some awareness of the nonsense that is identity

Do you think I will also be able to identify as German in postwar of British at the same time?

Fairenuff · 03/12/2019 18:52

It looks as if our government are going to allow non binary passports now.

Male, female and non-binary. The "X" stands for unspecified for people who do not identify as male or female

The BBC and The Guardian are writing about the court of appeal case today.

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FWRLurker · 01/12/2019 16:53

“Identifies as” = “Wishes others to pretend they are”

Devereux1 · 01/12/2019 10:31

Though kudos to Lurker for pointing out that there may well be some people for whom it is actually a useful way of handling their dysphoria

Yes, it may well be useful for them. In the same way as others with mental conditions have other behaviours and beliefs which are helpful to them.

But why should I be forced by others and in law to engage in, and use pronouns, adjectives etc, that are part of another's mental condition?