Lush has fallen

How can "a man" know what it feels like to be a woman? How can you?

Because she's female. And that's all the criteria needed. Unlike a male person.

I'm not sure you're going to convince me of that one.

I'm not sure what you think she's trying to convince you of. Are you confused about the difference between sex and gender identity?

So if a trans kid is accepted rather than punished by their parents, then they are the gender they identify with, but otherwise not? I'm not sure you're going to convince me of that one.

To be clear, you think that a male child wanting to wear dresses means they have a "gender" that's not male? So men or boys who want to wear dresses don't exist? I mean, I know Kurt Cobain and David Bowie are dead, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't the dress wearing that killed them.

This is exactly why people here are pushing back against genderism. This is regressive, sexist nonsense. It's not that you're too radical, the problem is that you're not nearly radical enough.

Socialization into gender roles is a bad thing, for everyone. It crushes individuality and forces people into boxes that are a poor fit for almost everyone. The extent to which the box chafes varies, but there's almost nobody who fits their gender role perfectly. The solution isn't more gender, it's letting children have whatever interests and preferences they have and eliminating the idea that boys shouldn't like that/girls shouldn't like that.

Because of dysphoria. I wouldn't have thought that the idea of a woman being unhappy with her body would be that astounding.

That idea isn't astounding at all. Women have more cosmetic surgery than men. Our feelings about our body are influenced by society though, and how we are perceived as members of a particular sex. And humans are pretty good at telling a person's sex.

So, how can a person who suffers dysphoria due to how society perceives them not have been perceived by society as the sex they are?

And it's equally important to understand that children can be hugely influenced by their friends and that not all influences are benign.

I'm surprised you're still posting on this thread after you posted that pack of lies yesterday @SmallCalpolFiend. Surely you don't expect anyone to take you seriously now?

Also, I'm aware that we can't read each other's minds. That's why we use communication. And why it's super important to listen to people you love (or like, or just respect) when they tell you who they are.

They fell a long time ago! Haven't shopped there in ages as a result.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn
So if a trans kid is accepted rather than punished by their parents, then they are the gender they identify with, but otherwise not? I'm not sure you're going to convince me of that one.

I realise this may be hard for you to grasp, but other people can't actually read your mind (or anyone else's). Even if you have magic gender feelings in your head, that's not what other people see - they just see a male child, or a female child, and respond according to their culture's ideas about how one treats that child based on their sex. If for example a male child is punished for wanting to wear dresses, that's male socialization (a female child wouldn't be punished).

@TheProdigalKittensReturn
No, but feel free to enlighten me.

@DickKerrLadies
Because of dysphoria. I wouldn't have thought that the idea of a woman being unhappy with her body would be that astounding.

I wrote quite a lot and I'm having trouble keeping track of who's arguing which point or even what point they're making, so if anyone wants me to respond it'd be helpful if you could be super clear. Bear in mind that I disagree with you, so a lot of the internalised assumptions you have won't apply (I have my own set of internalised assumptions which are different).

Of course, if you don't want me to reply then fire ahead, I don't need to understand you if you don't want me to.

Eh? If transwomen don't grow up being perceived as male and experiencing all that goes with it, why do they feel such distress and need to transition? I thought the point was that society perceives transwomen who suffer from gender dysphoria as male but they strongly feel not-male.

You realize that you're contradicting your own point, right?

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

male trans people will have spent their entire childhood being perceived as male by others, and thus having a male experience

You seem very certain of that, for someone who has never experienced being trans.

@KatvonHostileExtremist

OK. What's your point?

How you are treated by society is down to how you are perceived by it, and if you are perceived as female then you will have a female experience.

And male trans people will have spent their entire childhood being perceived as male by others, and thus having a male experience. And the vast majority of them will still be perceived as male and treated as such by others even after fully transitioning.

Same in reverse for female trans people, though they tend to pass a bit better post transition, at least at a glance.

Even the arguments that are meant to convince us that genderists are right prove that they're totally, utterly wrong.

I think we are all entitled to believe anything we want as long as it doesn't impact adversely on other people.
What I don't think we are entitled to do is to force everyone else to share our belief, or to change their language to accommodate us.

Thanks littlecabbage.

I save this quote for moments just like this.

😘

"Sex is biological and 99.98 percent of humans are either straight up male or female with no ambiguities. It's determined at conception and fertilization, and is observable in every cell, every system, all our hormones, every organ, and in our entire biology. Sex is not assigned, it's observed as a physical, material, and biological fact. Ultimately it's all about the gametes. If you produce sperm you are male. If you produce ova you are female. No human was ever born without the haploid contribution of both male and female gametes.
And as regards intersex, this occurs in about 0.017 percent of humans and every case is a disorder of sexual development of either a male or a female. We have a ton of good data and the DSD categories are well understood genetically. These are the six biological karyotype sex disorders that do not result in immediate death to the fetus:
X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s )
XX – Most common form of female
XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter)
XY – Most common form of male
XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births
"If you are 46, XX, you are female. If you are 45, XO, you are still female, but with Turner syndrome. 47 XXX, 48XXXX and 49XXXXX, aren't a spectrum of femaleness, they are classified as female chromosomal disorders. If you are 46, XY, you are male. If you are 47, XXY, you are male, but with Kleinfelter syndrome. If you are 48, XXYY, you are male, but with XXYY syndrome. 48,XXXY, 49,XXXXY. All are still male. These aren't on a spectrum - they are categorized as male genetic disorders. They aren't considered intersex conditions, but a lot of trans activists like to claim they are.
If someone had trisonomy 21, we don't say they are on a human spectrum of any sort, we classify them as having Down syndrome.
Intersex conditions by themselves can exist in a spectrum, but only in relation to the severity of that specific condition. But even over that spectrum they have clearly defined categories. Androgen insensitivity syndrome is someone who is genetically male, but their reproductive organs don't masculinize. It has 3 categories of severity.
There is no spectrum gradient between male and male with androgen insensitivity syndrome. These are clearly defined categories. There is no spectrum gradient between female and androgen insensitivity syndrome. You are either in the category female or category male with androgen insensitivity syndrome. There is no spectrum gradient between having an intersex condition and not.
If you have all the typical indicators of your sex, you are that sex, you are in that category. If you are born with the number and type of sex chromosomes off from your external genitalia, with unmatching or mixed type of gonads, with ambiguous internal reproductive anatomy; and/or ambiguous external genitalia, then you are in the intersex category. There is NO spectrum gradient or overlap between being typical male and having an intersex condition.
Bottom line: Intersex is a specific set of individual genetic disorders of sexual development - not a third sex or a collection of different sexes.
Gender on the other hand is a set of trivial characteristics associated with the performance of masculine or feminine behaviors. These are entirely cultural constructs and are widely varied culture to culture.
Bottom line is there are two sexes, three orientations, and 7.6 billion genders. "

@littlecabbage

I find it interesting to hear that people "know" they are female because they have a vagina and breasts, though it seems a little odd to me. I knew that I was a girl long before I developed breasts, before I even understood what a uterus or a vagina was, let alone that I had them. How did I know? I don't know. I guess because that's what I'd been told.

You will often hear of trans women referring to preferring dresses and "girls' toys" as children, but did you ever stop to think why? How often have you been made to justify your sense of being female? How would you go about doing that, if you didn't have the physical features to back you up? (I've never seen discussions of how trans men respond to this question. Do they get asked?)

I also think that if I were to have the awful misfortune to require a double mastectomy and a hysterectomy, I would still be a woman, and I'm guessing that no-one here would disagree with that. So how can womanhood be the sole right of people with those physical features? It can't.

The awkward fact is that there is no single physiological definition of "woman" which would encompass all women, not even "having two X chromosomes". And in the absence of that physiological definition, on what grounds can we exclude trans women?

Another awkward fact is that there is no universal experience of being a woman. Some women will have their breasts stared at, others will not. Some women have periods, others do not. Some women never have children (through choice or circumstance), some grow them in their own bodies, some use surrogacy, some adopt. Some like clothes shopping. Some do science.

How can "a man" know what it feels like to be a woman? How can you? You only know your own experience. You don't know mine, or anyone else's. You were told as a child that you were female, and accepted it. You never experienced gender dysphoria, so why on earth would you question it?

You talk about looking down to see a female body, being discriminated against at work, judged on your looks, and being mindful of sexual assault - these are all experienced by trans women too. How you are treated in the world has absolutely nothing to do with what chromosomes you have, because, crucially, nobody knows that. How you are treated by society is down to how you are perceived by it, and if you are perceived as female then you will have a female experience.

And please, can we stop with the anorexia comparisons. We don't encourage anorexia because it will very literally kill you. A trans person can change their body to reflect what makes them comfortable, and go on to lead a full, happy and healthy life. They are not comparable.

It it’s real, you can’t just stick a rainbow on it and it goes away. I saw one ribbon yesterday - ONE! And that was my sister...

There are many areas in which the documented HIV+ rate among trans people is much, much higher than the population average. So that could be the reason? I don't think Lush would want to talk about the reason why though (hint - it's prostitution) because that's a circle that's impossible to square if you subscribe to the full set of woke beliefs.

So again I wonder aloud - why on AIDS day?

I think - it’s not a ‘glam’ issue is it? Many of us are old enough to remember it as the death sentence, known people who had the diagnosis back in those days, watched people in real life and in the media fade away and die.

It’s real - it is on the rise again - but it’s grim, scary and horrible. Maybe the Harry Potter generation folx these days can’t handle grim reality. They want strictly come dancing and drag race. They don’t even want to see the reality of the horses they back.

That's one of the neatest most user-friendly explanations I've ever read cabbage. It should be more-widely circulated. If you can write that when you're tired....

Yeah Lush have always hated women (unless they have a penis, of course) look at that misogynistic, rape culture publicity stunt where stores encouraged random men to kiss Lush staff, without giving a shiny shite about consent or boundaries. Just awful.

Thank you again @littlecabbage, an excellent explanation.

I loathe lush and their woke politics and the way they treat their staff!
Great post @littlecabbage