Lush has fallen

Actually, no... humans are pretty good at deciding who fits the standard ideals of what "masculine" and "feminine" should be, but I thought we were wanting to reject that, no? I know quite a few women who have been repeatedly mistaken for men - sometimes agressively so - but that doesn't make them men.

No. People generally (99.5% of the time) know what SEX a person is. It's not determined by whether they are "masculine" or "feminine"

@littlecabbage I am not a particularly vocal person on mumsnet regarding trans rights. Any search for my past posts will show that, although I don't expect anyone to be really bothered. I'm just a) not an arsehole and b) I live and let live with matters that do not directly affect me.

I came onto this thread because I saw it trending and I thought "Lush has fallen" meant "lush has gone into administration" like Mothercare and others have recently, I had no idea that this was code for "anti - trans rant" or I wouldn't have bothered. I know that there's no point trying to get people on mumsnet to show empathy and compassion on this subject so I don't bother. When I was in @puds11 position I didn't know much about trans people I took the time to educate myself a bit and I just decided to live and let live and I don't see how trans people making decisions over their own lives and bodies negatively affects me.

I stand by my previous comment. There are plenty of places to learn more about this issue which will offer a more balanced, more informed and rational view.

And for the lurkers, sex is observed at birth (not 'assigned') and determined at conception.

6,500 genetic differences between female and male humans:
www.bionews.org.uk/page_95987

SmallCalpolFiend cis is both nonsensical and banned according to Mumsnet guidelines.

@squeaver that thread is shocking, I feel very 'taken in' by Lush's marketing and feel the need to look elsewhere for earth-friendly toiletries.

Cis women get mistaken for men. Cis men get mistaken for women.

There are 6500 genetic differences between men and women. A statistic that women globally have evolved to be ultra aware of as it is literally life saving.

Or not.

As evidenced by the 177 million females who never made it. I wonder how on earth they were identified??

This thread is another brilliant demonstration of why NoDebate was originally determined such an effective tactic.

I know this is slightly off-topic for this thread now, but I thought you might be interested in this, on Lush.

twitter.com/MondayFake/status/1195255732695961603

I love how Snidely Whiplash-like the doctor is.

I only came here to try to persuade undecided people that this was a place where there were a lot of extreme opinions about trans issues

I believe the word you're looking for is "recruit".

Does Sister Jenny Agutter know about this????

@TheProdigalKittensReturn
*Given how you're defining "women" this statement is quite literally meaningless. Or, wait, do you actually know what a woman is when it's convenient?"
You're right, here I do mean cis women. I've been trying not to use that word because, for some unfathomable reason, I gather it upsets people. I didn't actually come to start a bunfight.

Cis women get mistaken for men. Cis men get mistaken for women.

Anyway, I only came here to try to persuade undecided people that this was a place where there were a lot of extreme opinions about trans issues. I didn't come to argue with people whose minds won't be changed.

slate.com/human-interest/2014/06/infant-gender-assignment-unnecessary-and-potentially-harmful.html

For Mockers and anyone who has never seen this glorious piece of complete lunacy before.

"....the sex they were assigned at birth."

So I've been through every single episode of Call The Midwife, and I can confirm that This Never Happens.

that if a kid is punished for wearing dresses that that makes them male.

Nope, they're punished because they're male. What makes them male is having been born with a y chromosome and a penis. Do try to keep up.

Actually, no

Actually, yes! The fact that this hurts your feelings doesn't make it untrue.

I know quite a few women who have been repeatedly mistaken for men

Given how you're defining "women" this statement is quite literally meaningless. Or, wait, do you actually know what a woman is when it's convenient?

Wow, I only stepped away an hour - I might not have the time to address everything so bear with, I'm just one person...

@DickKerrLadies
So, how can a person who suffers dysphoria due to how society perceives them not have been perceived by society as the sex they are?
Because people don't usually perceive your genetalia unless your specifically showing it to them. And people can be good at hiding features of themselves that they don't want others to see.

And humans are pretty good at telling a person's sex
Actually, no... humans are pretty good at deciding who fits the standard ideals of what "masculine" and "feminine" should be, but I thought we were wanting to reject that, no? I know quite a few women who have been repeatedly mistaken for men - sometimes agressively so - but that doesn't make them men.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn
To be clear, you think that a male child wanting to wear dresses means they have a "gender" that's not male?
Wow, that would be a real "gotcha" if I'd said that, wouldn't it? No. Boys can wear dresses. What I was doing, was ridiculing your argument (awks! sorry...) that if a kid is punished for wearing dresses that that makes them male. Apologies if that wasn't the point you were making.

@MrsJamin
It's so utterly utterly disrespectful to someone to say "how can you know you are female?" How are you a grown adult and ask that question? It's literally what you are. Being a woman isn't a costume, a feeling or a membership to a club, it's something that you are. It's like asking someone "how do you know you are human?"

100% completely agree. So why do you do it to trans people?

'So how can womanhood be the sole right of people with those physical features? It can't.'

Womanhood is a 'right' that needs to be afforded to male people if they want it.

That is a really interesting comment. Womanhood as a right.

If people from Lush are watching this thread then I want them to address the issue with allowing female employees to be sexually harassed as a part of their job.

We were watching the human league old videos - when men work lippy and didn’t have a crisis...

What "gender" do we think Adam Ant is? Is "eyeliner daubed highwayman" a gender?

"people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth"

And this is Stonewall's definition of gender: "Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined"

So the implication there is that anyone who doesn't happily accept the sex-role stereotypes associated with their sex is trans. Women who aren't SAHMs. Men who do childcare. Lesbians. Gay men. All the suffragettes. Feminists. Men who were part of the New Romantics back in the 80s.

If this is sounding a bit ridiculous that's because the whole concept of gender is bloody stupid.

I honestly love threads like this. There's nothing better in terms of bringing newbies up to speed on the issues than seeing gender theory in full reality denying, harmful stereotype reinforcing flow.

Has Lush sent the bat(shit) signal up?

There's no such thing as 'feeling like a woman'. Being a woman is a biological reality whether one's female reproductive system is complete (e.g. after hysterectomy), or malfunctioning.

@SmallCalpolFiend It's so utterly utterly disrespectful to someone to say "how can you know you are female?" How are you a grown adult and ask that question? It's literally what you are. Being a woman isn't a costume, a feeling or a membership to a club, it's something that you are. It's like asking someone "how do you know you are human?"