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Original poster

RollOnFriday - law firm writes report called "Only adults? Good practices in legal gender recognition for youth"

109 replies

somebrightmorning · 29/11/2019 19:04

RollOnFriday is a satirical online magazine for solicitors.

Dentons is a very very large law firm (but I'm not impressed because I remember them when they were merely Denton Hall....)

I commend this article from RollOnFriday to you:

www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/dentons-campaigns-kids-switch-gender-without-parental-approval

and I see RollOnFriday also reported this:

www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/lesbian-barrister-investigated-setting-lgb-group

You will like this extract:
"Critics of gender self-ID have warned that it will adversely impact women and children in many areas, including rape crisis centres, single-sex hospital wards, women’s sport and identification of discrimination. Dentons' 65-page report characterises their position in two sentences, as concerns which "normally come from women’s groups" about "female prisoners and female public toilets".

Dentons' report also describes critics of gender self-ID as 'TERFs', which began as an acronym for "trans-exclusionary radical feminists" and is understood by many of its targets as a misogynist slur.

When it was asked to comment on aspects of its report, Dentons initially offered up Atanas Politov, its Director for Pro Bono, for an interview. Then it asked for written questions in advance. When these were provided, the world's largest firm by headcount was unable to find anyone prepared to answer them, and gave a general statement instead."

My own position is that hormonal or surgical intervention on a 12 year old is prima facie child abuse and so I'm very surprised that Dentons published such a report.

OP posts:
Datun · 02/12/2019 18:36

I don't really get it. What did they think would happen when this document was made public? Was it supposed to be kept under wraps?

It's so utterly damning. It's awful

Clymene · 02/12/2019 18:32

So a property legal specialist has put time, energy and money into a report about how best to covertly change national law. Wow, that really is quite something.

Dentons do not have a very good reputation (unsurprisingly it seems!)

Original poster
somebrightmorning · 02/12/2019 18:30

I think the Gazette is just the voice of the Law Society. It doesn’t do investigative journalism.

OP posts:
Procrastinator2 · 02/12/2019 18:28

Eurochick my point isn't that all solicitors are complicit or bad, just that, as poor as the journalist standards might be in the Gazette, you would have hoped the reporter would have picked up on the significance of Denton's report. If a trade mag for solicitors doesn't question, then what hope for the rest of the press? And since the Law Soc was collecting information by gender rather than sex perhaps they have already fallen which is concerning

Original poster
somebrightmorning · 02/12/2019 18:26

The involvement of the law firms is baffling.

15 years ago my gay colleague came out to me at our large law firm. Only 15 years ago. I think this has something to do with it. Also that fewer gay people have children compared to the average and that means no parental leave.... something quite attractive to the big firms.

OP posts:
eurochick · 02/12/2019 18:00

@Procrastinator2 could you clarify what point you are making. Sorry I'm not understanding.

If you are saying that publishing something about it in the Gazette is some sort of endorsement by lawyers in general then I don't agree. The Gazette is not well regarded in the profession but in any event they don't seem to have commented supporting the report. But perhaps your point is a different one.

Procrastinator2 · 02/12/2019 17:43

Eurochick The Law Society Gazette published a small announcement about the Denton's report and did not question the contents at all.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 02/12/2019 17:37

Why did Denton's write this?

Michelleoftheresistance · 02/12/2019 17:36

I agree with his comment about what is done in the shadows won't survive in sunlight.

In a country where trust in democracy, politics and parties is at an all time low; where all parties have no idea what to do about Brexit with an increasingly angry general public; where much of the mess of Brexit came from the disengagement of politicians with the average person in the street...……….. do they really think dropping this on the general public as a fait accompli with the inevitable disasters that will follow (because you'd have to be bloody stupid or very very determined to avoid foreseeing them), is going to improve anything?

And that's before you look at how these policies throw into reverse many national policies, Local Authority targets, huge amounts of time and investment. It won't work. It won't work in very big way.

LangCleg · 02/12/2019 17:25

You have to hand it to the women on mumsnet. And other feminists. They had this absolutely nailed and banged to rights from the very beginning.

Yep. I'm glad James is writing about institutional capture. And I feel for him: he's a nice, liberal middle class man who's decent and whose instincts are for kindness, and who clearly has trust in the British democratic tradition. I fear this has felt shocking to him. I'm immensely grateful he's prepared to interrogate all this without fear or favour.

Those of us way down on the social scale, however, have plenty of experience of the great and the good doing things TO us, not FOR us, and never considering they might require our consent. So we are not shocked.

eurochick · 02/12/2019 17:14

As a lawyer I find it incredible that a law firm would put its name to a report that recommends how to make changes to the law avoiding proper scrutiny. Despite our image as "sharks" most lawyers are ethical and intelligent individuals. There is nothing ethical about what this report is recommending.

Well done rollonfriday for giving this some sunlight.

Shame on you, Dentons.

littlbrowndog · 02/12/2019 16:51

So what I understand from this. Is

Let’s keep it a secret ?

From us the public

RoyalCorgi · 02/12/2019 16:50

Agree with Datun. And what's amazing about the Dentons report is that it is so upfront about using some very dubious Russian-style propaganda techniques to promote a dodgy agenda. It's almost as if someone has deliberately written a Machiavellian satire of the approach TRA groups are using.

Datun · 02/12/2019 16:44

I mean, what nonsense. If you think the public is misinformed, bloody well inform them.

Oh wait...

Datun · 02/12/2019 16:40

Bloody hell that Kirkup article.

You have to hand it to the women on mumsnet. And other feminists. They had this absolutely nailed and banged to rights from the very beginning.

From the report

"Against this background, many believe that public campaigning has been detrimental to progress, as much of the general public is not well informed about trans issues, and therefore misinterpretation can arise."

Quick, close the damn curtains, there's too much sunlight.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2019 16:07

In a democracy, we are all free to argue for whatever policy or position we wish. But normally, anyone who wants to change the law accepts that to do so they need to win the support or, at least, the consent of the people whose authority ultimately gives the law its force. The approach outlined, in detail, in the Dentons report amounts to a very different way of lobbying to get the laws and policies you want. Even more notably, it suggests that in several countries people have been quite successful in lobbying behind a ‘veil’ and in a way that deliberately avoids the attention of the public. That, I think, should interest anyone who cares about how politics and policy are conducted, whether or not they care about the transgender issue.

Yes. Great article from James.

RubyViolet · 02/12/2019 16:04

I hope James can write further on this and explore this method of working in the shadows further. We all knew that this was what is happening. Sunlight indeed !

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 02/12/2019 15:56

Fascinating to see it all laid out so clearly. I've posted a link to the Spectator article on Facebook, wonder what my "you're imagining it" "you're obsessed with that nonsense" friends will think, if they read it.

RoyalCorgi · 02/12/2019 15:46

We had a discussion about this report last week, but the Roll on Friday report is new, so thanks for that. And also good to see James Kirkup picking it up.

It is incredibly sinister for a large law firm to be promoting this particular agenda in this way without any kind of concern for the legal complexities or controversies involved.

TimeLady · 02/12/2019 14:41

James Kirkup has picked up on this in The Spectator

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/the-report-that-reveals-the-disturbing-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

NonnyMouse1337 · 02/12/2019 07:09

Thanks for clarifying Dollywilde and somebrightmorning. :)

Sorry, I got busy over the weekend and forgot about this. Going to read them this morning. Looks like more invaluable info.

Ereshkigal · 30/11/2019 11:14

A fan of ours comments below the article:

Just ban Mumsnet now 30 November 19 06:29
TERF is not a misogynist slur, and if you "understand" it that way then you "understand" it wrong and should make more effort to "understand" words properly. TERFs are exactly what the term suggests and they represent a fringe agenda comparable in its aggressive reactionary fervour to the incels. Goodness knows why ROF has decided to take their side (for the record, this article was anything but "balanced").

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