Dammit, just read the Plaid Cymru manifesto and now I have no-one to vote for

Third spaces it is then! Let’s all go to the pub.

I don’t know what the solution is though.

Surely the solution is to segregate by sex and have 3rd spaces for those who don't want that for any reason. The answer isn't to let any male who feels 'uncomfortable' sharing with men to be allowed into the women's spaces, and make enormous numbers of women uncomfortable. Those women have nowhere else to go.

I think third spaces is a good compromise.

For me, the big- and seemingly insurmountable issue are sport, prisons

Yes, but also things like medical treatment where a female is requested, rape crisis centres, refuges etc

I don’t think a transgender woman who has been treated by society as male all her life and risen through the ranks accordingly should be given plaudits as “the first female X” if they then transition as she simply hadn’t faced the hurdles that natal women do at every stage, which is the point of having such plaudits in the first place.

Oestrogen cream gets systemically absorbed so surely the application of it would mean an increased dose of testosterone would be needed to counteract its effects.

I'm not an expert on this, but that sounds reasonable. I think I have seen somewhere that if a woman takes testosterone for more than a couple of years she has to have a hysterectomy and oophorectomy because of the complications.

Unlike men, who can apparently take oestrogen for years and don't have to have any surgery - and of course over 90% don't, which is another reason for not wanting them in women's spaces.

Yes I accept that, It’s not how I personally feel but I accept what they are saying. I don’t know what the solution is though.

JPharm- do you accept that there are women who have legitimate reasons for not wanting to share spaces with male bodies people?

To be fair I’ve gone further down this rabbit hole than I ever intended. I only clicked on the thread because I was torn between voting Labour and Plaid!!

And as for 3rd spaces? That’s what most GC people want. But the trans community on the whole don’t. They want complete acceptance of being ‘women’, no questions, concerns or fears are acceptable.

My apologies, I should have said ‘a lot of the trans community’. Not ‘the trans community as a whole’.

I’m just telling you how I personally feel about it. I don’t speak for all women.

No, you don't.

But you said this earlier:

MN is just stoking the fire of anti-trans sentiment and anyone who expresses support for their rights to use the space they feel comfortable is labelled ‘not a feminist’ or ‘doesn’t give a shit about women’s safety’.

In this post you don't seem to recognise that some women disagree with you, and that those women have rights too. In this post you are not saying it's 'just your opinion', you're saying that you support the rights of transgender people to use whatever spaces they want over the right of women to object.

I don’t think that allowing people to use the space they feel comfortable with is wrong or dangerous.

But many of us here do think it is wrong and potentially dangerous. You don't speak for us. And since you understand that you don't speak for all women you must realise that if one single woman objects to what you propose, then it is unacceptable.

Yes, it always comes back to loos, doesn’t it?
For me, the big- and seemingly insurmountable issue are sport, prisons

If they use a male space they risk being assaulted, why is this?

I’m basing it on an experience a patient told me about where a man threatened to kill her for using a gym changing room (this was before she had surgery, she now uses women’s spaces and hasn’t had any issues). I guess men could be less tolerant and more likely to be physically violent?

Thank you for answering.

This is one of the cruxes of the argument. Men are overwhelmingly more likely to be violent than women. That does not change because a man decides one day they are a women.

By saying trans women should share spaces with women, women are being placed at risk... a level of risk that is... apparently... unacceptable for a trans women to have to live with. Of course not all trans women are violent. But, as a class, male bodied people are.

And as for 3rd spaces? That’s what most GC people want. But the trans community on the whole don’t. They want complete acceptance of being ‘women’, no questions, concerns or fears are acceptable.

As it turned out, the testosterone had atrophied my reproductive system—a condition that could have been prevented by the use of estrogen cream

Oestrogen cream gets systemically absorbed so surely the application of it would mean an increased dose of testosterone would be needed to counteract its effects. Any endocrinologists out there want to satisfy my medical curiosity?

Why do you robots come on here and say we are all afraid of trans people attacking us your dumbing down the issue AGAIN

I know genuine transgender people I'm not bothered by them I'm bothered by people hijacking there struggle to make it easier to get there kicks and perversion sorted masterbaters in womens changing rooms the ones who upskirt swordstick person ones who carry knives ( with glitter) yaniv wax my balls the tampon fetish people raiding the bins those are just a few of the people I have issues sharing my space with

The Friday night people are about...

Fully aware

And yet your reply was on a completely different issue.

Some excerpts from the Buck Angel article - these are some of the effects of testosterone on the female reproductive system:

After about 11 or 12 years of taking testosterone, I started getting cramps, mostly after orgasms. Sometimes they were like bad period cramps, and other times, they’d make me double over in pain for hours.

After about 15 years on testosterone, I felt a fever coming on one day after my workout, like I was getting the flu, and the next thing I knew I was passed out on the floor. My then-partner rushed me to the emergency room with a 101-degree fever and rising.

As it turned out, the testosterone had atrophied my reproductive system—a condition that could have been prevented by the use of estrogen cream. The atrophy fused my uterus and my cervix together, along with my ovaries and everything else, creating an infection that burst and became septic.

Do you think a door with a picture of a lady on it is going to stop a man hell bent on raping or assaulting someone?
If that were the case, why do sexual assaults against women increase in mixed sex toilets & changing rooms?
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html
One of many examples
www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/17657739.pervert-filmed-22-women-girls-getting-changed-darwen-leisure-centre/

Why would a man put a sign on a toilet door indicating that it was mixed sex if it didn't make it easier for him to access women in a vulnerable position?

But what about women who don't feel comfortable with a male in their space? Don't women matter to you?

I’m just telling you how I personally feel about it. I don’t speak for all women.

Are you unaware of the effects of testosterone on the female reproductive system?

Fully aware, it’s why egg or sperm freezing should be discussed before starting any hormonal treatment. I didn’t mention it because I generally assumed that those seeking treatment would be aware that eventual reassignment surgery would mean losing the ability to reproduce naturally anyway. Perhaps I did make too bold an assumption though, I didn’t consider those who may only wish to seek hormonal treatment.

I wrote to my MP, Ben Lake last year about the concerns I had about being able to self identify as a woman, and what that meant for women’s protection. I explained my concerns as an abuse survivor whose PTSD reacts to trans people based on their sex, not their pronouns. I wrote a lot of personal stuff in that email, and he didn’t even respond to it. It showed me exactly what he thinks of me and my pain. Not worth a second thought.

I’ve voted plaid for years and years as I love their green policies and general politics match mine identically. My purpose was never to persecute trans people, not at all, but I don’t think it’s wrong to provide third spaces rather than risk making women’s spaces open to predators (and I don’t mean trans people, I mean predators who will take advantage of changed rules to attack women).

I’m tired of people handing away my freedoms as though they mean nothing.

I’m saying I don’t have an issue with a trans person peacefully using that space if that’s where they feel comfortable

depending on the situation, I don’t necessarily either, but I recognise that other women have legitimate objections.

I suspect trans women historically used the women’s quietly and discreetly and no one noticed. This massive overreach by Stonewall etc to deny the importance (or even existence) of sex and to widen the definition of woman to anyone who says they feel like one has actually caused a backlash and lots of women who had no issue with quiet co-existence previously are horrified by proposals which effectively open up women’s spaces to anyone who says they want to use them.

I’m saying I don’t have an issue with a trans person peacefully using that space if that’s where they feel comfortable.

But what about women who don't feel comfortable with a male in their space? Don't women matter to you?

@JPharm
Are you unaware of the effects of testosterone on the female reproductive system?

bust.com/sex/195055-trans-man-gyneologist-advice-buck-angel.html

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3352661-Buck-Angel-a-story-of-the-dangers-of-trans-medication

So you admit that men are more likely to be violent.

Isn’t it statistically true? I’m not saying lets allow all men in for bants! I’m saying I don’t have an issue with a trans person peacefully using that space if that’s where they feel comfortable. Quite clearly I’m in the minority here though.

I’m basing it on an experience a patient told me about where a man threatened to kill her for using a gym changing room (this was before she had surgery, she now uses women’s spaces and hasn’t had any issues). I guess men could be less tolerant and more likely to be physically violent?

So you admit that men are more likely to be violent.

But this is what you say about women not wanting men in our spaces:

It happens anyway, we’d do better to put in a more robust legal process and legal aid for the victims of sexual assault so that we increase conviction rates and have them off the streets

I don’t think there is anything wrong with saying that sexual assault happens, it’s a huge problem, I have been a victim of it myself and never got justice. I feel that the best way to address it is to strengthen the legal process and improve the conviction rate so that the chance of being assaulted (in any space) is greatly reduced.

You suggest that the legal process should improve. But this also applies to feminine men being assaulted by other men in male spaces. And do you really think that by letting more men use women's spaces fewer women will be assaulted? If not, why would you suggest doing that?