I thought you needed a GRC to change the sex recorded on a passport

Yep thats the crux of it. A GRC is only to enable a trans woman to change their birth certificate.

Every thing else can be changed without one. It's always been that way.

Thanks for clarifying that RealityNotEssentialism.

So if April Ashley had been able to manipulate the BC to show female instead of male, then they could have continued to refuse a divorce and keep their partner trapped in marriage to them for as long as legally possible... Sounds like lovely person.

Still .... As I've said in another thread, no real good comes from all this deception, hiding and obscuring truth and facts.

It's the political leaders that have to be held accountable for the mess they have landed all of us into because they couldn't be bothered to think of a more robust solution such as legal recognition of a third gender for trans people.

Nonny he knew about it but April Ashley refused to agree to a divorce so he sought to have it annulled on the basis that she was not a biological woman instead and he succeeded. It seems that some birth certificates were altered on request before that case but I wouldn’t have thought it was particularly common.

BC changes also used to be self ID before April Ashley’s husband got a divorce on the grounds April was born a man.

Are you saying April Ashley was not upfront (to put it politely) about their biological sex with their partner and the only way he found out about this is because the BC showed April's birth sex was male?

It sounds like all forms of ID are merely a form of vanity if they can be changed on people's whims. So why have the sex marker at all? What purpose does it serve other than decorative if it has no bearing on anything factual?

And on the referral process to a GIC, whilst I think about it, that’s a case of telling your GP and asking for a referral. No medical tests or assessments required.

Yet further examples of self ID.

And, as a side note, change of documentation like your driving license, bank details etc. are used as proof of having made meaningful changes by the GICs prior to being put on the care pathway. Usually before a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is made.

You seem somewhat surprised that trans people can change everything but their BC so easily.

BC changes also used to be self ID before April Ashley’s husband got a divorce on the grounds April was born a man.

Anyone could simply go to their registry office where their birth was registered and ask for it to be amended.

The government was taken to to European Courts in the 90s because we were unable to make these changes, where they unsuccessfully argued that as all common forms of ID can be easily changed, the BC did not need to. This led to the GRA in 2004.

The trans community, and indeed most politicians have been telling you for the past two years the UK operates on a self ID basis and has done so pretty much forever.

the demand for privilege

That’s exactly what this is. Nothing to do with “trans rights” or anti-discrimination.

This is horrifying. I truly feel like I'm living in 1984.

Just don’t understand why gender/identity is so important as information to be collected - but sex isn’t.

I’m cynical. I suspect there came a time (or some bright spark realised there would come a time) when the demands for men to have women’s rights would prompt calls for trans status to be recorded alongside sex by the police. And suspecting that would almost certainly prove what many of us believe (that MtF transitioners offend in much the same pattern as all men) they prevented it from being recorded and set in train a bit of preemptive confusion.

I also agree with Nonny. The demand for privilege (rather than rights) is exactly what causes me to resent this ideology (not trans people personally, obviously). But others will resent them personally. Look how resentful men are of women, simply because of the few additional rights that are an attempt for us to obtain equity.

I'm pretty sure you don't need any kind of surgery to obtain a GRC; but you do have to show that you intend to 'live as a woman/man'... Whatever that means.

I am still astounded that trans people are allowed to change the sex marker on their BC. What kind of logic is that?! I have yet to come across a good argument for it. It should never have been allowed. What were the fuckwits in the government thinking?

I can understand attaching supplementary information to a BC - to show adoption, listing gay/lesbian parents, legal change of gender etc. There aren't that many situations where a BC needs to be referenced, and the information on it should be viewed as sensitive / private if needed, but no one should be allowed to alter or erase the basic details.

What the...?! So you can't change your birth certificate if you can change your name but you can change it if you've had surgery/mutilation of genitals?! I thought it was meant to be a record of birth. You can change your name but your biological sex will always be your biological sex. Just as you can't go from Human too an Amphiprioninae. This makes no sense.

If in say 150 years a trans woman's skeleton was dug up, even after surgery, it'd show they're a human male. I hate this phrase, buttt, at the end of the day when all is said and done science is science.

The ability to change identity documents on a self-ID basis combined with the privacy of a GRC is why the single sex exemptions are unenforceable in practice

That’s why people running a single service need to ask for BC and not any other ID document, such as passport. If you ask for a GRC you can’t tell anyone what it says.

KristinaM that’s so shit that you can’t get a birth certificate in your own name when people can get it for a sex they were never born as but believe they should have been

Thank you. I can get a short Bc with just my name and DOB on it but I can’t get a full birth certificate, with my parents’ names on it. The one that’s used for passport applications etc

The ability to change identity documents on a self-ID basis combined with the privacy of a GRC is why the single sex exemptions are unenforceable in practice.

It's not 'trans rights' that are being demanded and steamrolled by the lobby groups, but 'trans privileges'. It's ultimately a dangerous game because giving one tiny group extra special concessions that no one else can access ends up breeding resentment and actually might increase hostility and prejudice towards trans people in the longer term.

If trans people get free reign to do what they like in terms of what goes on their passports or licences or modifying birth certificates etc. it leaves open a giant loophole to be abused by certain types of individuals, whether they are trans or not.

The trans lobby is creating more problems for trans people in the long term.

Could you not refused entry at some countries for not having sex right? My h’s country would never accept feelings and gender. Unfortunately they are struggling with accepting homosexuality.

This shows the lie of the TRA's campaign against the spousal "veto". They claim not having a GRC prevents transition but really all it does is stop you changing your birth certificate.

Just don’t understand why gender/identity is so important as information to be collected - but sex isn’t. I imagine the police can no longer use man/woman/boy/girl /male/female when describing unknown suspects.

The law is an ass.

KristinaM that’s so shit that you can’t get a birth certificate in your own name when people can get it for a sex they were never born as but believe they should have been.

GRCs are pointless anyway ...

Unless you are a man engaged in criminal activity who would prefer to be automatically processed as female.

This fact crossed my mind only a few days ago. With self-ID there is a massive incentive for sex offenders to change their legal sex. As others have said here, how often do you use your birth certificate? So it would have a negligible effect on his day to day life, but in the unlikely event he was convicted, they would be forced to process him as female.

That’s really shit @kristinaM

As an adoptee I can’t get a birth certificate with my legal parents name on it. Apparently because that would be a legal fiction and wrong.

It doesn’t matter how long I live as my new “ identity “ ( in my case more than 50 years ) I can never get the birth certificate to prove it . I don’t have a full birth certificate like everyone else. Anytime I need to show a full birth certificate I have to show an adoption certificate instead, breaching my and my parents confidentiality.

However a GRC is different, it’s confidential. People with one of them get a special department in the tax office and passport office to protect their confidentiality.

So if self ID comes in I’m thinking of applying for a GRC once ( to become male ) then again to go back to female. So I can get a new birth certificate like everyone else.

Jelly well given that the law allows the ‘change of sex’ fiction, having it on the passport means very little. You could say that another relatively unchangeable thing is height, skin and eye colour but we don’t have that on passports. It’s also not relevant for the purpose of the passport which is to verify the identity of the holder which is mainly done through iris recognition software these days.