Does MN have a problem with trans people? **MNHQ edited title as OP has apologised for 'accusatory' tone**

i do not think data based on non trans people can be extrapolated to trans people.

You're right that data based on women can't be extrapolated to transwomen just because they both have 'women' in their name.

Transwomen should be treated legally, politically and in single-sex spaces as the subset of men that they are, unless and until we get data one day showing that they actually behave significantly differently from men as a group.

I used to think saying 'transwomen are a subset of men' was the most shocking thing anyone could say on here. It would be cruel and tactless (although still true) if it was said in a social situation with a transwoman. When we're debating the rules around single-sex spaces though, it's completely appropriate. Going along with the polite fiction that a transwoman is literally, actually a woman in a context of working out the best way to keep women safe would be completely inappropriate.

All men are seen as safeguarding risks, that's how risk evaluation works.

I dunno. I’ve a lifetime of being gnc in female spaces and know plenty of butch women. I have to confess, that third-person account reads quite oddly to me - almost like someone trying to imagine how “gender conforming” women might react to GNC women.

I’m was never bothered to be momentarily thought to be male but getting called a pedo (!? Wtf, Were there kids there?) would give me pause.

Please read my screen shot I added, it matters.

Ok all - Actually off this time

i do not think data based on non trans people can be extrapolated to trans people

For the purposes of this comment, let's say males have the propensity to commit sexual assault at a rate of 1 floof per 100 men, where '1 floof' is equal whatever the correct statistical unit is.

Research has also proven that transwomen have exactly the same patterns of crime as men.

So, in a group of men, 1 floof per 100 will go on to commit sexual assault. OK?

And in a group of transwomen, 1 floof per 100 will also go on to commit sexual assault.

That's just how it is.

But how do you know that man over there is really the father of that baby? I mean they are so likely to rape, he could have stole it. Even if he is,you would probably so something if you knew someone is likely beating a child so why dont you phone the social services for every child who is left alone with their father? Or left with a male teacher?

Bonkers, you know that.

You started with a semi coherent argument and now you have this?

@Eyezswideshut I think I have lost track of your argument.

know my own partner but I dont know all men so if I really thought that men were they dangerous,I'd be spending most my time stopping them being around kids. Even their own kid. They wouldn't be allowed to teach or anything. Too risky.

Let me ask you why you're so eager to validate male feelings that you're performing mental gymnastics to justify males in women's spaces, yet don't care about women's?

all men are too much danger around their kids. If they are that likely to rape.

Safeguarding applies to all, yes because men are statistically more likely to be abusers.
What is your point?

But if the case is that all men are of equal risk

Why do you think that?

But how do you know that man over there is really the father of that baby? I mean they are so likely to rape, he could have stole it. Even if he is,you would probably so something if you knew someone is likely beating a child so why dont you phone the social services for every child who is left alone with their father? Or left with a male teacher?

I know my own partner but I dont know all men so if I really thought that men were they dangerous,I'd be spending most my time stopping them being around kids. Even their own kid. They wouldn't be allowed to teach or anything. Too risky.

Is that your gotcha, All animals are elephants?

Nobody is allowed to teach without proper safeguarding in place...

But if the case is that all men are of equal risk so much so that even those who take the opportunity to change their body appearance and legal identity to be female,then all men are too much danger around their kids. If they are that likely to rape.

To be honest, most people would hesitate before letting a completely strange man change their baby’s nappy or give them a bath. I don’t think I get your point.

What was the example used in court?

Some animals eat people. Gerbils are animals. Therefore gerbils eat people.

Yeah, try harder. Not engaging with that kind of silliness.

I know my own partner but I dont know all men so if I really thought that men were they dangerous,I'd be spending most my time stopping them being around kids. Even their own kid. They wouldn't be allowed to teach or anything. Too risky.

If it is unsafe for someone who was born a man to be in a changing room or toilet because they are very likely to rape the vulnerable and weak, then they should not be exposed to the naked genitals of a child for safeguarding reasons

Right, now how do we know who is a risk?
We don't, so we have safeguards in place.

But anyway, for me the issue with people with penises in woman only spaces is not about rape. It’s about privacy and dignity and protecting our hard won freedoms.

Yes, exactly.

i do not think data based on non trans people can be extrapolated to trans people.

Why? What's your rationale for that? What's the material difference?

But anyway, for me the issue with people with penises in woman only spaces is not about rape. It’s about privacy and dignity and protecting our hard won freedoms.

If it is unsafe for someone who was born a man to be in a changing room or toilet because they are very likely to rape the vulnerable and weak, then they should not be exposed to the naked genitals of a child for safeguarding reasons.

@BernardBlacksWineIceLolly

Honestly I dont know what I think. But I do know that I dont think every man is equally likely to rape women and i do not think data based on non trans people can be extrapolated to trans people.

To put it in hairdresser language, it would be like telling someone with afro hair to use products or techniques that were only tested on non afro hair.

I'm getting so tired of the desperate, ridiculous generalisations and deliberate misunderstandings.

If you honestly can't differentiate between someone you're married to and unknown males in spaces that could be risky in terms of sexual assault then I can't help you, I really can't.

Do you stop men bathing their kids or changing their nappies?

so confused now. Can men only bathe if there's a strange woman in the room?

Can men only change nappies naked with a strange woman present?

I'm really not following you Eyezswideshut
Still waiting to hear about living as a woman though

Women can also be abusers and rapists.

Only trans women can be rapists, as it requires a penis.