Does MN have a problem with trans people? **MNHQ edited title as OP has apologised for 'accusatory' tone**

I'd just like to remind @Eyezswideshut that my comment about cross dressers was in response to this post.

Because I get those 3 things, it doesn't seem extremely unsafe to have someone who was born a man but dresses and presents as a women in my toilet or changing room. It doesn't make sense to me.

You didn't say this person was transgender. You just said that they 'dress and present as a woman'. I assumed you meant a cross dresser (who is of course under the Stonewall trans umbrella, along with almost everyone else, including most of the women here).

Im not speaking about allowing men, I'm speaking about trans women

You need to catch up to speed with who comes under the trans umbrella these days. Old school' fully transitioned transexuals have been quietly accessing female services and spaces for decades. Your insistence on free access for all is doing them no favours at all.

Forcing yourself, when unwanted, into someone's space is an act of violation.

But you have no proof that trans women are as likely to commit violent crime as men. Every study posted has been refuted. Even by the author themselves in one case

The onus is on you to show that is not the case.But do you know what - why not just campaign for third spaces, and leave women's spaces alone. Generations of women have struggled for the right to establish their own boundaries, and to feel safe and comfortable in public spaces.

Sort of like my racist Uncle has to realise that he can't do anything about the increasing number of people who arent white or English living in his area

That is simply a ignorant and offensive comparison. Most women want and require single sex spaces...and women of certain ethnicities would be actively excluded if that were not the case.

Why do you think we have single sex spaces in the first instance? Is it just because we've not been 'woke' enough up until now?

I'm still waiting for Eyez to ask me about trans widows' ex husbands and cross dressing.

I love it when the hard of thinking affect a patronising tone. Always a LOL from me

but I think we have agreed that data about men cannot be extrapolated to trans women.

No, don't remember that being agreed?

Eyes, According to your incredibly plausible story, your cousin was attacked by two women in front of a security guard and because of this all men should have access to women’s toilets as a collective punishment?

It's a novel argument, isn't it? Actually it isn't even that, I've heard variations on this theme many times.

@popehilarious it's also sexist to say you feel like a man/woman/girl/boy, personality and tastes are not linked to biology. It's nearly 2020 for crying out loud, can't men wear dresses and women baggy clothes without it meaning there's something wrong/different about them... doesn't mean you're born in the wrong body, because no amount of surgery or drugs can change your genetics, just means sexist gender stereotypes are super outdated. So swings and round abouts.

For someone who said they didn't know you sure are arguing with me a lot.

And trotting out all the much loved TRA talking points.

Cross dressers arent transgender

Bunce. Cross dresses half the week. Won a women's award. If Bunce is not a transwoman, how did Bunce get on an all-woman list?

They want to invade and appropriate ours. Because they’re not a marginalised group of women at all; they may be marginalised relative to other males, but relative to women, they are the oppressors masquerading as the oppressed. Members of the more powerful of the two sex classes trying to break down the boundaries of the less powerful sex.)

So. You have positioned yourself firmly on the side of the existing power holders against those who have less power. Just like lemon, you want those who are already less powerful and more vulnerable to have even less power and be even more vulnerable.

All of Talking's post but especially this.

Eyez denies that a large part of the trans umbrella is actually trans

What a transphobic bigot. Erasing the existence of trans people like that. Literal violence. Truscum types are the worst.

(Yes, this is satire.)

^Please tell me why women should have men who fetishise women and rely on their unwitting participation, in their personal spaces?
^^
It would also be useful if you could explain to me how we can tell the difference between a man with AGP, a man with gender dysphoria, a pervert or a paedophile?^

Yes, would love an answer, all the transactivists I've ever asked seem to have run away when I did?

Cross dressers arent transgender.

Not only does Stonewall say they are, how are you defining "transgender"? The majority of those XY persons who declare themselves transgender seek no medical or surgical intervention - GIRES said that, not me. To be "transgender" all you have to do is say you are.

Sort of like my racist Uncle has to realise that he can't do anything about the increasing number of people who arent white or English living in his area.

No, Eyez, your logic is fatally flawed there.

It’s not an exact equivalence by any means, but roughly speaking, Black is to white in terms of power dynamics and historical/ongoing oppression as female is to male.

So by your logic you are actually arguing that Black people should not be entitled to have any spaces, services or awards set aside exclusively for Black people in order to redress the imbalance of power, the corrosive effects of racism. Black people who want “safe spaces” in which to discuss their own experiences of racism or growing up Black in a racist society, without white people present, should not be allowed to do so, by your logic.

Similarly, you would presumably argue that gay men, lesbian women, bisexual people should never be free to gather as a discrete group without the presence of heterosexuals. Disabled people must always include able bodied people who have not experienced any of the issues that disability brings in any conversations they may have. Trades unions must always include members of management in their ranks.

Any oppressed/disadvantaged/minority group must always include people from the group that oppresses/disadvantages them IF those people in the oppressor group “identify” as being part of the oppressed group. That’s how you see it, presumably.

(Actually, one of the proofs that biologically male trans people aren’t an oppressed group of women is that male trans rights activists are not, on the whole, asking for separate spaces etc. If they really felt oppressed by women, they wouldn’t want to be in our spaces, they would want their own. But they don’t.

They want to invade and appropriate ours. Because they’re not a marginalised group of women at all; they may be marginalised relative to other males, but relative to women, they are the oppressors masquerading as the oppressed. Members of the more powerful of the two sex classes trying to break down the boundaries of the less powerful sex.)

So. You have positioned yourself firmly on the side of the existing power holders against those who have less power. Just like lemon, you want those who are already less powerful and more vulnerable to have even less power and be even more vulnerable.

It’s you who’s the bigot on a par with your racist uncle. Well done you.

Saying 'the opposite gender' is incredibly transphobic as it assumes two genders. You can't really have the 'opposite' otherwise.

Again, you are entirely transphobic to assume that just because someone has a beard and is "masculine" that they are not a 100% transgender woman. It's an internal essence, you see.

Long day, I can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic

Eyez cannot answer whether there are any male-bodied people - any at all - who should not be allowed in female spaces. If Eyez could do that, Eyez would need to specify which kind of males these would be. How would one legislate to ensure only the female kind of male-bodied people accessed female spaces?

Eyezs are you sure you don't mean your hairdresser, not a cross dresser, you've talked about them a lot, not as much as your cousin though. Also please tell me what men men are?

There's got to be a prize for the contortions of 'logic' going on here...

Eyezwideshut

Please tell me why women should have men who fetishise women and rely on their unwitting participation, in their personal spaces?

It would also be useful if you could explain to me how we can tell the difference between a man with AGP, a man with gender dysphoria, a pervert or a paedophile?

So to sum up:
Eyez doesn't really know what 'trans' is
Eyez demonstrates eyez doesn't understand that risk of a group doesn't directly translate to risk of every individual within that group
Eyez cannot answer what 'living as a woman' is - I assume due to Eyez' previous posts it's something to do with appearance
Eyez denies that a large part of the trans umbrella is actually trans
Eyez thinks one incident that allegedly happened to a woman being shouted at in a toilet means that all women should be denied the protection of sex-segregated spaces, yet cannot walk through the logic of this.

We haven't agreed anything of the sort that data about men cannot be extrapolated to transwomen. They are one and the same thing, except some transwomen take hormones, some transwomen have had surgery, and most transwomen pose no threat to anyone at all, just like most men.