Newsnight now

As a non-expert in gender dysphoria but an unwilling semi-expert in autism, I'm surprised it isn't the first thing to be raised, SirVix and SamallBlanket. GIDS' own figures put the prevalence of autism at about 13% in gender dysphoric children (in the UK; about 26% in Finland!), way way higher than in the general population.

Mermaids people never come across well do they ? Could that be because the whole ideology does not stand up to scrutiny I wonder ? Anyone ardently backing it looks unhinged when questioned. See Dr H for another example.

Yes, that is my impression based on the treatment of a friend’s dd, in another European country. Her poor mental health and suicide threats, all put down to being trans. On cross sex hormones swiftly at 16, double mastectomy at 17. It is absolutely heartbreaking. She is possibly autistic, also possibly lesbian.

So awful Non

Your poor Dd

smallblanket

It was the same for us - no counselling at all. They’re being disingenuous. There’s an 18 month waiting list for GIDS. We had to go through CAMHS before being referred. Dd stayed she was male, that was enough for CAMHS to sign her off and send her to the Tavistock. You’re then left with a long long wait with no psychological support as gender dysphoria isn’t classified as a mental health issue.

There’s a black hole in treatment while on the waiting list. Dd was in great psychological distress but the ideology said it was caused by how oppressed as a trans person she was. CAMHS wouldn’t see her, they refused to refer her for an ASD assessment for 4 years. Everything was because dd was transgender.

The Tavi spokesperson said de-transitioners are a tiny minority

And maybe they were, when we're talking about the cohort of 10 years ago. I've seen figures of 1 to 5%, so 95-99 out of a hundred will persist. The Tavi used to see a couple of hundred children a year so perhaps they would expect 2-10 to detransition.

But what if you increase the number to 1000 and get exactly the same numbers persisting as before, because these were the children who, on balance, needed that change?

Then you could have unprecedented numbers maybe all of the other 900 young people per year regretting their transition. We don't know how to predict this, because the situation and the bar for medical transition have changed.

I notice through that video package great emphasis was placed on saying that the detransition rate is very low, when the real truth is that nobody actually knows. I paraphrase ;some say the detransition rate is 2%, some say 1% or even lower.’ That is an odd turn of phrase in that context.

And yes, the Mermaids person did come across rather lacking in sincerity. Not being able to see so not seeing her body language, even to me she, they, came across as somewhat falsely cheery and like she was choosing words very carefully for some reason, almost like there was a gun to her head. Not that I’m for a second suggesting that Mermaids would actually put a gun to anybody’s head, I mean in the metaphorical sense.

it will be interesting to see if the comments on this thread using female pronouns for the NB person get deleted

because WE CAN'T FUCKING TELL IF SOMEONE'S NON BINARY

we could all tell that person was female though, innit?

Yes small

And why are doctors referring 3 and 4 year olds to the clinic !?

I did say to myself when watching “I bet the Mermaids person is NB.”

The shift in numbers really needs research. It does coincide with the rise of youtube etc, but also with the rise of pornography. The ways in which to be a girl or women seem frighteningly narrow compared to my cohort at my (all girls) school. I would guess that men who wanted to be feminine found the social strictures so difficult that identifying as a women felt like the way to some level of freedom. That seems to be happening with girls now instead. There is also the autism factor. How any doctor can think it is ethical to put an autistic child on a lifelong medical pathway, when the issue is partly their literal interpretation of social gender mores, is beyond me.
I cried watching Debbie, when she talked about having a mutilated body, and no hair.

I've just realised that I referred to the Mermaids rep as 'she' because that was my assumption.

They is a non binary person who demands they/them pronouns.

twitter.com/enbylawyer?lang=en

twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1199104370446520320

Yes Smallblanket

Thanks for your wishes.

The research could start with actually following up after patients are discharged, which GIDS admit they don't do, so I don't suppose the adult clinics do either.

The Tavi spokesperson said de-transitioners are a tiny minority, but she doesn't know that.

So instead of saying to patients "the vast majority of the people we see are very satisfied with their treatment" , they could say "we do know that some people regret their treatment, and we currently have no idea how many, so irreversible treatments should be a last resort".

And family doctors need to step up to the mark and express their doubts too, instead of sending kids down a train track by immediately offering to change an 18 year old's medical record to state "m" instead of "f" , long before an appointment with a gender clinic. I am also looking at schools, colleges, all of whom are complicit in swallowing ideology whole without any critical thought.

So sorry @smallblanket.

Small 💐

As a professional, the best defence is usually the truth. So I think the Tavistock doctor played a poor hand well by just admitting that "we don't know" and that it's all based on individual experience of the medics there.

It will be much harder now for anyone to refuse funding for researching detransition won't it?

If the adult services are "pretty lax and affirmative" then they are in breach of NHS clinical guidelines.

Who is challenging that?

The big problem is that people like me, whose DD is affected, is that I cannot go public. I can't risk challenging the clinic directly or even getting my MP involved.

That's why Charlie Evans, and others like her, are so important.

Hoping all those complacent clinicians are all in a cold sweat and have as many sleepless nights as I have had over the past few years.

If I were any of these people I would be waking up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat worrying about the day this blows up to be a massive scandal - the select committee hearings, the tribunals, the court cases... if this is their rationale for their treatment strategy they are going to be on a very sticky wicket when this reaches national scandal level.

I know that Thomasin, a detransitioner, pictured holding the lesbian banner at the march with Charlie, found the adult GIDs service to be pretty lax and affirmative. She was in both and the difference was quite stark.

She will be speaking at the Manchester detrans event. And I think spoke at the WPUK Leeds event. She describes social media being a huge influence on her thoughts that she was trans - to answer the woman from the GIDs service's question about why such a big increase in referrals.^^

The lack of interest from the Tavistock person for any sort of research into what might play into a transitioned person deciding to detransition was notable.

Sterilisation of women who decide they don’t want to conceive- perhaps ever, perhaps again - is often turned down because they may change their mind and it’s an expensive procedure but to sterilise and to try to undo a sterilisation. Why isn’t there the same fiscal scrutiny of transition treatments if nothing else?

It’s really hard to take a balanced view when all transitioning people are treated as if there is one reason - that they were born into the wrong body. Maybe for some, this does absolutely fit with their feelings but how do we know without research? It does feel so much more nuanced.

I can’t help feeling there will be a huge increase in evidence of people who regret transition. Why aren’t the Tavistock keeping tabs on this? Essential research. The younger a person was when they transitioned, the more responsibility the Tavistock and their type will need to take if it proves to have been the wrong thing.

It’s a massive thing to have your fertility removed, especially before you have reached the age when so many change their mind about not having children.

I've just realised that I referred to the Mermaids rep as 'she' because that was my assumption.

Apologies if I have misgendered.

Yes. And if I can hazard a guess as to the slightly unconvincing nature of the Mermaids rep - looked like a woman to me, but knowing the way Mermaids filters normal things like short hair etc. she may well have been a transman (for clarity for moderation purposes, it wasn't made clear, hence my vagueness), and she is being asked to brush away detransitioners, people who have been on a journey she might be on, and that might be quite disconcerting.

Vic Derbyshire hasn't done much special sad voicing of late either. I wonder if that's significant?

the mermaids person had really weird body language at the very end of the interview. it was like a moment where they went 'did i say the right thing there?' it was odd

She certainly looked like someone who didn't believe in what she was saying.

"We mustn't use these experiences to suggest that everybody is being dealt with in a way that suggests that they're being pressured or made into being trans. That's incorrect. You can't make someone be trans"

and later

"What's really, really important is to ensure that this experience isn't used to pressure other people. It shouldn't be used to tell those who are trans, that those who are gender diverse that they are wrong or that they are different.
It is about creating a system that makes everybody feel validated"

So, Mermaids are in essence saying that it's really important to not make people pause and really deeply consider whether making irreversible changes to their (or their children's) bodies is in their best interests? have I got that right?