R4 Today

Question never asked:

What are you going to do with all the women who will have to leave the refuge/ not have access to refuge because of a biological male in them? Many of whom will have children with them. Many of whom will have protected characteristics. Many of whom will have experienced extreme violence, actual threat to life and suicidal feelings.

There's a fuck ton more of them than there are TW.

Why ffs not make SOME refuges mixed sex, and leave others single sex? And don't dare to say 'they won't be near home', every day women travel hundreds of miles to the one vacant bed in the country with small kids in tow.

Why not fund specialist LGBT+ refuges to set up for the apparently many many desperate LGBT+ people in need of them? (What are the numbers? Why does no one wittering about this ever have them to hand?) I'm sure the LGBT+ refuges will be inclusive too and welcome non LGBT+ people.

It's not difficult to find basic solutions that meet everyone's needs here, unless your primary aim is not about meeting needs but enforcing a really grim anti-woman agenda.

"I cannot believe we have reached the point where a Lib Dem MP is seriously arguing the case that males should be allowed in women’s refuges because otherwise the males will kill themselves"

and that their wives will be to blame

Thank you Clymene

How do women tell the difference between a genuine man who says he's a woman and a man who says he's a woman to get access to women?

No need to distinguish. The former may not intend harm to women. However just because he says he's a woman doesn't make it true. Neither should be in women's spaces: in my opinion.

You should be able to do it by time. Today starts at 6am so about 55 minutes in?

Does anyone know what to search for to find this on the radio 4 catch up player?

That's just it, nauticant - I just can't account for women actively campaigning to allow sexual fetishists into women's spaces. WHY??

They see vulnerable women who are suffering because of gender self ID - like Karen White's victims - as collateral damage - worthwhile because they're upholding the TWAW mantra, and getting all their brownie points from the woke?

You are being very generous in your last paragraph. I think they're aware of the breadth of the trans umbrella and consider that letting the fetishists into women's spaces is a price worth paying. To what end I'm unsure.

Tara's training course.

From 4:25 Tara describes trans being an "umbrella" term, including a range of different identities.

I'm supportive of trans people not being stigmatised, and being able to receive medical care with dignity - but I'm at a complete loss as to why this means vulnerable women have to share intimate spaces with male bodied people because of how they feel internally, or because of how they dress.

Tara, who is a transwoman, distinguishes between transexuals, drag queens, cross dressers who may be cross-dressing part or full time, and may be doing it as a fetish.

When the LibDems (and others) talk about this, I think they must only be considering transexuals - because I can't see why anyone would think male sexual fetishists should be allowed into women's spaces.

Have the Libdems never heard of AGP?

Have they never heard Tara Hewitts training talk to the NHS confirming that some males do this as a sexual fetish?

Would someone from the Libdems care to explain to women why they should allow those male bodied sexual fetishists to get off by being included n women's spaces? Because as per Tara Hewitt, and Stonewall, they are included under the trans umbrella now.

Let alone the AGP, fetishists Abd blokes who just want in to our spaces for the power trip

Exactly @justhadathought so many ppl still think trans = transsexual with full surgery not the pips & Alex’s of this world

I cannot believe we have reached the point where a Lib Dem MP is seriously arguing the case that males should be allowed in women’s refuges because otherwise the males will kill themselves

And referring to women as 'Cis' to boot.....without our permission: regardless of our identity, our feelings, or our sense of well being

how will you protect women from men who pretend to be trans in order to access those spaces?

It is not just about men who "pretend to be trans", but about how the label of 'trans' has expanded to include all manner of people and practices: fetishists, transvestites, non-binary and so on......not just the small handful of genuinely dysphoric men with a GRC.

Men getting sexual thrills from incursion into women's spaces, being fitted for a bra by unsuspecting staff.......and so on.

I cannot believe we have reached the point where a Lib Dem MP is seriously arguing the case that males should be allowed in women’s refuges because otherwise the males will kill themselves.

There is so much clearly wrong with that argument that I don’t even know where to begin.

Yes, people have a very wide definition of "friend" in these circumstances. I'd be interested to see that if they were pressed, this "friend" would be someone they met through politics who was specifically there to push the policy through - and in all cases was the same person.

Helen Belcher is hoping to be elected as an MP. Helen's wife Joanna spoke at the lib dem conference about their relationship. I think she mentioned that Helen had threatened suicide at some point. In a short video on Helen's website Joanna mentions how she had to 'walk on eggshells' before Helen's transition because Helen had 'a very short fuse'.

This blissful relationship seems to be the only account of transitioning that the lib dems are willing to listen to.

Well he didn't challenge her much at all. We seem to have the Belcher template there - didn't seem to be much of an explanation of why that means TW are acceptable in refuges either. The usual logic fail.

I agree that it is positive that the Lib Dems are being honest about this policy. Layla Moran did respond to me about this and simply said she supported the GRA. She would have had my vote if that were the limit of the policy but shes lost it now. I think she'll still be elected but not with my help.

I was shocked that she used one example of a transwoman and her wife

Interesting scenario for a refuge

I agree, HandsOffMyRights, on the relationships threads, it is often said that a partner threatening suicide to get what they want is abusive. I don't know the case Jardine was talking about- but do we have to take these threats of suicide at face-value?

It's interesting that it is male interviewers who are asking female politicians to explain their views. Is it just female MPs who are being trotted out to defend this centering of trans-women (even when they are, as pressed by Justin Webb today, male-bodied), pushing aside the needs of the most vulnerable women in society- ie those who have had to escape to refuges? Does the BBC think that a female interviewer asking these questions would be subject to abuse or wouldn't be taken seriously? Do Labour and the Lib Dems think that listeners will be more convinced by women who don't seem concerned about an impact on women's rights, than by a man speaking?

Actually I don't think it was such a bad thing that Justin Webb let Christine Jardine speak for so long. In trying to defend her views that male-bodied trans-women should in some cases be able to enter a woman's refuge - Jardine ended up speaking about a woman who had to accept her husband is now a 'woman' because he threatened suicide. I mean, who is the victim here?! What a ridiculous defence that was of the Lib Dem position.

It's so dangerous to pluck out the suicide line on a whim.

'Better a dead (insert xxx, anyone but a 'woman' of course).

That word is designed to close down debate. It's low, it's deceitful, it's irresponsible when thrown around without thought or care.

As somebody pointed out on the mirror thread, do we have to state this now? Talk about those women in refuges who've been beaten, raped and abused by men. Those women who contemplate taking their lives because it's an escape from their monster of a husband.

I'm fuming that once again men's hurt feelings trump the safety of vulnerable women.

Broadcasters need to stop being complicit in this.

They need to challenge back, to explore the data and as for the Lib Dems, you are disgusting.

Justin should have grilled her on what "living like a woman" means.