Half of all women will be carers by age 46

Ok apologies for making assumptions 5zeds. I’ve also explained myself badly I think.

Do you think though, that it is precisely because it is disproportionately women who are carers, it affects how society perceives? Do you think if it were mostly men who took on caring responsibilities that it would be undervalued, not supported through the welfare system etc. Would it be seen to be of much higher value?

I can’t unpick this from the hit on finances. I understand your point that you personally don’t feel that’s the measure of your own worth, but would it not be better if there was a shift and you (and the people you care for) were financially well-supported to do the important job you are doing? To me, that’s the crux of it. I know what it is to live off benefits, they are nowhere near enough to feel like you can even afford to breathe for most people. If the vast, vast majority of people who are taking on care responsibilities are women then we as society should be making sure they don’t suffer a financial penalty at the very barest minimum.

I think anyone's circumstances do matter though, it's completely different being in a situation where you're the only person bringing any money into the house and you're unable to do that because of caring responsibilities than if you have someone else there bringing in an income from which you benefit now and in the future through pension contributions. I don't care about status, but I do care if I don't have enough money at the end of the month to pay my mortgage. I think the system is still based on the sexist assumption that men work and bring in an income whilst women's income isn't that important and can be sacrificed for caring.

I think there’s quite a lot of extrapolating going on about my particular situation which isn’t particularly accurate or really relevant.

For a start all the caring responsibilities that your average “going out to work” woman might encounter (eg ageing parents, sick/incapacitated siblings, young children, personal illness, financial hiccups) don’t stop because you happen to be a full time carer. You don’t just juggle work and doing your Mums shopping. It’s caring for whoever needs you and doing your Mums shopping. Secondly a full time carer isn’t any less able of seeing the difficulties faced by added caring responsibility to your average Jo employees life than anyone else. We still retain the ability to see beyond our own life experience.

If you were to ASK me what would help it really isn’t some nebulous rise in “societies” opinion of my worth. I don’t really get a sense that I am worthless with or too society anyway. It’s actually the “status”, if that’s the right word, of those I care for that I think needs addressing. The issue I think is not so much carers are seen as “lowly” but that their dependents are seen as valueless.

I don’t think they are measures of “worth” though. Society does. That’s the point I’m making. Unless caring roles are valued more by society you’re going to end up with women being shat on at the bottom of the pile. Caring roles ought not to bring financial penalty but they do. You can’t live without money, you know that.

What the article highlights isn’t particularly those people, men and women, who have full time caring responsibilities like you do. It’s mainly talking about women who are being squeezed at both ends by caring while perhaps trying to hold down a job etc.

I hope you don’t feel like I’m having a go at your personal situation. It’s a bloody difficult situation and I know that, but if society as a whole placed more value on caring then you would have more money to live off because you’d be better supported by a welfare system which said, yes, we as a society understand that caring is massively important and we think carers should have enough to live on without scraping by, and that they will also accrue enough of a pension to live at the same level in later life.

@BadgertheBodger
I still am capable of judging my worth without checking my income

I’m a bit confused what you mean by this 5zeds

I mean that the assertion that being a carer lacks any status at all because it isn’t well paid is just wrong. There’s a quote about judging a fish on his ability to climb a tree and finding him inadequate that sums up m6 feelings on this.

You wrote this earlier

the shitshow surrounding women; we earn less, we often take a career hit because we’ve had children, we’re less likely to be the main earner because of both of those things and the fact that there is a societal expectation that women will just absorb caring roles which will punish them even further financially. It’s a cluster fuck.

None of these measures of “worth” are particularly appropriate when measuring those who aren’t employed.

As an aside and just to be very clear, I’m not a saint, I’m not secretly living off a trust fund, my caring role is not minor nor new and I don’t have a ”support network” to provide anything very much. I’m sorry if that doesn’t fit the expected stereotype but we are where we are.

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/31/take-care-of-your-elderly-mothers-and-fathers-says-tory-minister

@isabellerossignol I got similar responses to what you did, On the thread that ive linked.

Im a carer to my DH who is 23 years my senior Im 46

The amount of women doing this will now decrease due to the Changes to Pension Credit.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_money_matters/3479693-Changes-to-Pension-Credit

I still am capable of judging my worth without checking my income

I’m a bit confused what you mean by this 5zeds

I didn’t say your income wasn’t important, someone else suggested I didn’t have to worry about money and I very clearly said that isn’t the case.

The fact is, it’s women who are most affected and that is inherently unfair and sexist
Yes. Even the majority of the jobs in care homes - very hard physically and mentally - are done by women on low pay.

You made your point very well Badger! I am the only wage-earner in my house, if I don’t earn we have naff all money, that tends to focus your mind somewhat. I suspect those people who think it isn’t important have another income from somewhere.

5zeds I don’t think the issue here is that women are judging their own worth by what their income is. For me, that just puts it all back to the individual and somehow implies you might not be saintly enough if you even slightly begrudge some of your caring responsibilities because they bring a financial penalty.

I don’t see the care I do as worthless, far from it, but I can’t see how it helps women as a class for society to just expect us to absorb this additional responsibility. There is a cost. Financial, emotional and time, all costs. All a price to be paid by women who are already in a situation which is detrimental as they are paid less than men in the first place. I’m so shit at explaining this properly

I care for my grandma. I probably give her, on average, 15 hours ish a week in person + a lot of phone calls + I run all of her financials, life admin etc + I arrange and accompany her to appointments. So far, so usual. I don’t qualify for Carer’s Allowance, pittance that it is.

So if we say I do 25 hours a week for her, that 25 hours where I’m not giving my toddler DS my full attention, I’m not cleaning my own house, I’m not doing anything for my household. That’s a time/emotional cost for me.

It’s also 25 hours a week where I could be earning money, paying into a pension etc. So financial cost as well.

The financial cost makes me vulnerable. It reduces what I will have to live on in retirement and it reduces what I have to live on now. If DH, the main earner in our household, decided to fuck off I’d be up shit creek. The fact that the time and emotional costs are piled on top of this just makes it harder.

Now, I love my grandma to bits and I don’t begrudge giving her my time, my energy and even my money. But it fucks me off so SO much that society as a whole just expects women to bear that burden.

If men were equally affected by this issue I’m sure that as a society we would try to move forward together to find a solution - more flexible jobs, better alternative care provision, an acknowledgement that care ought to be paid for properly. The fact is, it’s women who are most affected and that is inherently unfair and sexist.

Gah I find it so hard to make my point succinctly. Sorry.

Im 38 and care for my 2 teen children with additional needs. 1 doesnt attend school so is with me full time as she cant be left alone. The oldest is autistic and so cant be left for long. Plus 2 younger children 1 of which is starting to become depressed also. I get 66.15 a week becuase you can only be classed as a carer for 1 person. I know people with 3 or more in their care and yet still only get 66.15 a week. Its a joke they talk about us being invaluble but they dont treat us like it. Were forgotton and left to navigate the system alone, we have to find our voice and fight every corner for those in our care. There is no restbite. I know these kids will be with me long past their 18th birthday. And i will continue to care for them but finicially we will be hit hard. They forget this. I also know in a few years it will fall on me to care for my mother as im the oldest of my siblings and not working. I have spent thr morning emailing about 10 different agencies begging for help. I dont hold any hope.

That’s not a position I am ever going to be in. I’m a full time carer 24/7/365 and am likely to be until I die. I still am capable of judging my worth without needing to check my income.

If you are managing to survive on benefits alone with no other income, hats off to you too. I don’t know how people manage to do this either!

My wonderful, amazing grandmother has cared for my grandad almost single-handedly for the past 16 years. They moved to the coast to retire, so were miles away from any family, leaving most of the pressure on her. We were able to visit twice a year at most. They had many happy years there, but sadly 16 years ago he had a series of strokes that left him with severe memory issues and developed into full on dementia.

He couldn't be left alone anymore as he would do things like put things in the toaster other than bread, and she put her life on hold for a very long time. Over the past couple of years they hired carers a couple of times a day, as he was in his 90s and now physically struggling too, and my grandma was not strong enough physically to help him to the bathroom etc.

He sadly passed away at the age of 96 at the start of this month, but I will be forever in awe at how my grandma looked after him for so long.

She is a lot younger than him, and is now mid 70s, and physically and mentally fit - so I hope and pray that she manages to live her life to the full now that she is able.

The loss is incredibly sad, but my grandad hasn't been my grandad since he had his strokes.. if you know what I mean. I feel we all grieved for him then, really, and the funeral 16 years on was just a procedure :(.

Hats off to carers. They do a wonderful and incredibly difficult job.

I think that people who have no experience of paid care have no idea how limited it is, never mind that the most dedicated of carers making a cup of tea a couple of times a day does not in any way compare with a loving family who'll actually spend time interacting and making the person feel like they still have someone who cares about them.
I think this is very true.

Well, I think you are very lucky if you're in a position not to have to worry about money.
That’s not a position I am ever going to be in. I’m a full time carer 24/7/365 and am likely to be until I die. I still am capable of judging my worth without needing to check my income.

Everybody should have at least a day off a week. All carers, including mothers. It should be considered a basic human right. It should actually be two days a week and several hours a day in working days. But we're so far from that.

Those kinds of conditions are imposed for other jobs. It's not just about the money. It's respect for the workers too. No wonder people are getting burnt out.

to everyone on this thread who is struggling, some of your situations sound much worse than mine, I am in awe of anyone who manages to do this intensely for an extended period of time.

IF you see the value of any endeavour in terms of how much money it provides then it’s obviously the key issue. Seems a very “Male” and rather old fashioned take on things to me.

Well, I think you are very lucky if you're in a position not to have to worry about money. Especially when you have dependents. Money is a very real worry for a lot of people though, and given that women are more likely to live in poverty in old age, I think it's a very feminine concern!

IF you see the value of any endeavour in terms of how much money it provides then it’s obviously the key issue

We all need to be able to pay for our housing, buy food and give our children opportunities, not to mention paying into our pensions so we have options about our own care in the future. Caring can leave women impoverished now and in our retirement.

I'm 46.

I'm a carer for my two dcs who have additional needs. I'm incredibly lonely. My self esteem is really low because I can't get a job and my children don't understand how hard it is to not just be their mother, but their advocate and therapist too. The eldest can also get aggressive which is scary because I have C-PTSD from my childhood. I'm completely invisible. If I disappeared only the three people in my family would notice. There are carer get togethers, but I can't go as my youngest dc is part time at school. I've just been let down by someone I thought was a friend, so I'm feeling very low today.

IF you see the value of any endeavour in terms of how much money it provides then it’s obviously the key issue

It's not that I as an individual see an endeavour in monetary terms. It is that society sees it in monetary terms.

A few years ago on this forum I got torn to shreds by multiple posters for saying that I couldn't leave the area I grew up in to search for a better paid job as my parents were reliant on me for care. Apparently I was selfish, I owed it to the country to work more and pay more tax, I was setting a bad example to my children, I shouldn't be allowed to use the NHS because I didn't contribute enough, I deserved to be poor in old age for not planning better. Apparently what I should have done is move to London where the jobs are, earn a fortune and pay for carers for my parents.

I think that people who have no experience of paid care have no idea how limited it is, never mind that the most dedicated of carers making a cup of tea a couple of times a day does not in any way compare with a loving family who'll actually spend time interacting and making the person feel like they still have someone who cares about them.

In the 70s there weren't as many elderly people with very complex needs needing cared for.

My mother was a carer for her parents in the 70s. My father earned good money so she didn't work, she devoted her time to us and to her parents. She is very elderly now and I care for her, and I'm fortunate to have siblings, although the burden is not shared equally there (but that's another story, and not gender related in our case). She doesn't regret caring for her parents, she was glad to be able to do it. Her parents were very grateful to her, and she is very grateful to me and tries her best not to be demanding. And she isn't; she frequently asks me to leave her and go and give attention to my own children instead. But that doesn't mean that I don't feel guilty every time I leave her in an empty house alone, knowing that she won't see anyone else today and she is lonely. And if she falls she can't get up. It's an emotional load as much as a practical one.