I'm loving Catilyn Jenner but..

I won't be watching, especially if there's a focus on how womanly one can be if wearing makeup, or through fondling one's own surgically created breasts for camera (India Willoughby, Big Brother).

My DD who is 16 had had a conversation with me for the first time accepting that TWANW having been previously woke, I guess she's previously not really thought about the reality. She still feels worried about TW being at risk of violence in men's spaces, bit at least it's opened up conversation a bit more than in the past.

I agree with @NotTonightJosepheen thanks for putting that so articulately.
CJ has changed appearance to reflect the feeling that CJ’s gender is more feminine than masculine.
CJ’s sex, physique and genitalia remain male.
Yes it takes CJ longer to look feminine than when CJ was dressing as a man.
No grooming and make up have nothing to do with being a woman, it’s a gender expectation that some women buy into, some not, ime varying on how tired I am/current relationship status/situation at my workplace/whether I’m being photographed.
I’m a woman with hair up not very brushed, 2 hours into morning at work realising I’ve still got baby sick on my top.
CJ is choosing to dress like a woman, it’s not the same thing.

To be fair to Caitlyn at no point have they said they're speaking on behalf on women everywhere. They're just giving their experience. Furthermore they've spent about 20 odd years living with the Kardashians; I'd bet everyone of them spends a lot longer getting ready in the morning than me. No one is saying the kardashians are more female than me (but they do look better). I've also seen threads here criticising Jenner for remaining masculine. They can't win so they might as well just do what they want really.

You’ve never observed any kind of societal pressure on women to put more effort into grooming than men do?

Goodness, your experience of life as a woman has been very different to mine.

Spending time doing your hair and make up doesn't make you a woman but for those of us women who choose to do this it is more time consuming than men who can wash and go.

I agree with @BolloxtoGender to gender. Cailtlyn will feel the need to make an effort to look more feminine by doing hair and make up as she naturally looks more masculine being born a male. I completely get what she meant and I'm sure she meant no dig at women who choose not to wear makeup and style their hair.

OP, perhaps you should ask for this to be moved to the Films and Television Section?

ironickname there is no earthly reason why you should have to make yourself believe CJ is a woman when all your senses tell you the opposite. You are doing nothing wrong, no one can make you believe what you know to be untrue. And you won’t be piled on for saying so here because many of us who frequent these FWR threads are gender critical and do not believe people can change their biological sex either.

I quite like her on on a celeb but I dont watch anything with her family in it so only based on this.

To be fair if she did just jump out of bed and run out the door that would be pretty weird considering her socail status and where she lives. Also i think she remains apt if masculine features so maybe has to think more about her grooming to soften her overall look?

Kellie Maloney for example I think looks more like she was born a woman. I imagine she could get away more with shopping at the supermarket in her pjs, no make up etc. But regardless Caitlyn leads the kind of life where woman spend time on such things. She is so far removed from reality with her lifestyle I cant feel too invested.

Ironickname
You most definitely will not get a pile on here telling you you're wrong about Caitlyn. Your comment may be deleted though.

she needs to get up an hour earlier now she is a women and can't just shower and go

I must have missed that memo. I was up at 7.38 and out at 8:03 having showered, cleaned teeth etc.

Separately, I like Caitlyn too.

Interesting that she has no problem deadnaming herself, constantly referring to Bruce

I’d presumed she had had a problem with Ricky Gervais’ joke at the GG but now seems more likely the TRA set were behind it

Everyone in the world has their own unique life experience. Hardly worth putting on your CV is it?

Depends on the job you're applying for?

In the same way that I respect people's belief in God, but I don't believe in God iyswim

What has this got to do with women's rights?

Who said it has?

This is the womens rights section

The 🐼 reference on page 1 is maybe my all-time favourite MN post

I’m a woman who lives in jeans and t shirts, wears no make up, and just gets bathed, dressed, and out the door in the morning. I don’t have to put on “woman face” or a costume to try and act the part, and I don’t have any so called “ gender identity”. It’s still obvious that I am female.
Transgender people don’t have that option though - if they have a male body that they don’t feel comfortable in, they need a lot of grooming and maintenance to present it as a stereotypical female one instead.

I think that’s what this person was describing, which is fair enough, but they really shouldn’t extrapolate that to all actual XX women. I’m very anti make up - I see it as a con trick by the patriarchy to sell tons of overpriced gunk and make women feel ugly without it! Quite apart from the sheer waste of time plastering it on and scraping it off again every day, when we could be doing something far more productive.
I feel rather sorry for the person in a way - it’s like they’re trying too hard to gatecrash a club that is never going to accept them. Much better to start their own club, and accept the fact that they are trans, not women, and be happy in society as that. I think we’d all feel far more positive towards them if they weren’t trying to invade our sports, changing rooms etc.

I think OP wanted to discuss grooming/femininity.

Which is really ignoring the elephant but hey ho.

What has this got to do with women's rights?

Who said it has?

What has this got to do with women's rights?

Caitlyn still has all the appendages that Caitlyn was born with.

abouttime2
Well, the problem is that it's always put in such twee euphamistic ways there's no real way to know.
I'm sure not going to check!