Good luck Harry The Owl

Firstly, Mrs Owl, beautiful writing

It is indeed and the thought behind it is very provoking.

I've been following the case from Mexico. I'll never live in the UK again but I feel that this will set a world-wide precedent.

I am ashamed to say that Mexico has just passed a law allowing children to "change sex". In the preferred way with zero publicity.

OvaHere, thanks for checking out Ben Summerskill. I talked to him on a couple of occasions and he struck me as reasonable and spoke to me with more respect and willingness to listen than any other paid Stonewall worker I've encountered. He also has a lesbian sister, Claire, who I can't imagine allowing him to get away with anti-women stuff. Nevertheless, it was under his watch that TRAs got their feet under the table at Stonewall.

I've already posted this elsewhere but I have a close friend and an acquaintance who were on the Stonewall committee for their region back in the noughties, around 10 years before the T was added in 2015. Also on that committee was an older transwoman and a Queer PhD student (male). The transwoman and the Queer guy were active members of the committee and were promoting the acceptance of trans and queer people in Stonewall. By that point it was already heretical to ask questions, as my lesbian friends found out to their cost.

My lesbian friends were involved in the lesbian community at a grassroots level. They weren't professionals already working in the equalities industry so they were already looked down on and patronised by the paid Stonewall Cymru staff and by some of their fellow committee members.

When they asked what a man with a girlfriend and a transwoman were doing on an LGB committee and when they said they didn't think their lesbian friends and contacts would welcome men who thought they were women coming to lesbian events, they were basically accused of being bigots. They were humiliated and treated by the committee as if they were the problem until they resigned.

I mention this because it goes back years before Ruth Hunt took over. I would venture that Stonewall Cymru had been captured by the trans lobby and supporters by around 2006-8 and here in Wales we're usually a year or two behind London. By that point it would have been difficult for anyone on the Stonewall Cymru committee to voice GC views without running the risk of being publicly vilified, as my two lesbian friends found to their cost.

Have just caught up with the thread.

I hardly post on here, just lurk & try and absorb as much as I can.

Firstly, I'm actually awed by people like Harry & Maya being brave enough to stick their heads above the parapet.

Secondly, going back to the twitter claim that our favourite acronym is 'factual'...

I am firmly in the GC camp, but I would see a fight for the rights of trans men to come under the feminism umbrella, as they would have faced the discrimination that all natal females experience.

The acronym would only be 'factual' if you only count TW as REAL trans, surely...

Shiny new thread available

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3751826-The-Continuing-Saga-of-Harry-the-Owl-Thread-2

Thank you pombear for linking to Mrs Owl's comments. They so clearly demonstrate the awful pressure that this must take on all these courageous people who publicly stand up to the awful threats and intimidation.
I hope that Harry & his whole family take some comfort from the comments from the thousands of people who have contributed to his cause - they are very moving.

Great blog from Mrs Owl there. I wish she'd come back to FWR, she was great when she came before.

Well said Needmore, I absolutely agree with you.

I would like to see less of right and left. People can hold whatever views they want (obviously within limits - incitement to violence is not good). But they should be able to articulate them, be willing to defend them, and be subject to scrutiny by the media.

This^ 100 times over.

Thank you pombear for linking to that. As you say, it’s beautifully written and very moving. The strain and pressure of this case on Harry and his family must be horrendous. Harry and his wife are incredibly brave. I really hope Harry triumphs. I suspect there are millions of us cheering him on all around the world.

...which will encourage a lurch to the right which is scary in its own right.

A lurch to the left is equally scary as traditional northern Labour voters are starting to suggest.

I would like to see less of right and left. People can hold whatever views they want (obviously within limits - incitement to violence is not good). But they should be able to articulate them, be willing to defend them, and be subject to scrutiny by the media.

I am really sick of dim people being able to claim a moral high ground simply because they endorse "right think". It happened on Brexit where, to question the orthodoxy was to be labelled "racist" or worse. I speak four European languages and have sat in my share of EU meetings. Yet when I tried to suggest on Fb that there might be more nuance to the debate (I personally am worried about the EU's democratic checks and balances) I was aggressively shut down. The loudest voices were only interesting in hearing each others echoes.

And here as well. #nodebate means we get the politicians we deserve, including manipulative bullies and self serving greasy pole climbers.

Manifesto policies should be costed and spending priorities outlined. John McDonnell will know as well as anyone (actually perhaps not all the current Labour front bench) that tax the rich to pay the poor is not that simple. (Raise taxes too high and your tax take will fall.)

And here Gender Self ID is not some nice words. There is a built in conflict of interest and Gender Self ID has consequences. I will feel less threatened when a party (probably any party) is grown up enough to have a manifesto promise to look into the gender issue, with an aim of supporting and protecting both TG people and vulnerable people whose own protections might be impacted.

.

If anyone can bear it I wonder if this might be an illuminating read?

I read the latest blog on Fair Cop's website earlier on today, written by 'Mrs Owl'. It has stayed with me all day. I hope Mrs Owl doesn't mind me highlighting it here:

www.faircop.org.uk/post/january-november-2019

Firstly, Mrs Owl, beautiful writing.

Secondly, it's a timely reminder of the impact that taking these things public has on both the person and their family.

Knowing someone else who is also high-profile in this right now, I'm acutely aware of that impact. And how messages of support can help.

Thank you Harry, Mrs Owl and your wider family and friends. I'm so sorry to hear the toll it's been taking on you all. And can't thank you enough for pushing onwards, hopefully for the benefit of many.

As you quote The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice

...which will encourage a lurch to the right which is scary in its own right.

perfect storm of the dominance of postmodernism in the liberal academy (graduates from this fill all our policy and third sector jobs)

I think the liberal academy is at the epicenter of the ongoing onslaught against critical thinking and freedom of speech. One of the most damaging tautologies to emerge over the last couple of decades is ‘if you don’t accept the new orthodoxy, you’re a bigot. The proof of your bigotry is objection to the new orthodoxy’ These two cases, Maya and Harry, demonstrate that if you aren’t frightened, you haven’t been paying attention. People are getting sacked for expressing perfectly valid opinions. There’s a poster on the Julie Bindel article thread who wanted to post it on social media but can’t because she is worried about her personal safety and university job. This is insane. And unfortunately? This desire to police, no platform, silence, bully and dominate the narrative? it’s coming from the left wing.

It's not complicated at base that men will put their needs, and for some reason their orgasms as a very high priority. Fuck knows why. I mean, I like sex as much as anyone, but I can't imagine ripping apart lives to have an orgasm.

Oscar Wilde. Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power.

Do women receive the same power from a sexual encounter? I’m not sure we do purely due to biology which makes us smaller, physically weaker and for the majority orgasm more difficult to achieve, particularly with a passive sex partner.

Even if you took physical orgasm out, the mental validation would be balanced with physical penetration which is much imbued with connotations of submission, in both heterosexual and homosexual sex. Alternately mental validation from performing a sexual act on a man as a you are in my power kick would still involve bringing him to orgasm, rather than the power of using another human for solely your own benefit/pleasure.

Biology again. It just won’t stop being relevant.

I think it's a perfect storm of the dominance of postmodernism in the liberal academy (graduates from this fill all our policy and third sector jobs), neoliberal individualism being cemented in the political economy over the last thirty years, and capitalism reacting to and supporting new market segments.

Quillette - hi monitors! Know you love a good Quillete link! - has an interesting article about how luxury ideas held by the elite filter down and create havoc among we lessers.

quillette.com/2019/11/16/thorstein-veblens-theory-of-the-leisure-class-a-status-update/

Needmore,
Thank you for that very clear analysis. That’s a great overview.

Reputable organisations should not have hired a lobbying organisation (whatever it lobbies for) to write/create policy, whether public sector (College of Policing) or commercial (M&S or Maya's employer)

Well said. I think it’s outrageous that Ruth Hunt has been given a peerage, especially as she seems to have been so instrumental in advancing this agenda which is so inimical to women’s rights.

I just looked up Ben Summerskill on twitter. His account is very low key - doesn't tweet a lot, doesn't have a profile pic.

He posted an ambiguous tweet about the LGBAlliance (hopes that new Stonewall CEO has the heft to sort this out) and he also retweeted Joanna Cherry getting an apology from Pink News.

There may be more but I only went back so far. Reading between the lines it seems he may not be thrilled about the direction Stonewall has taken.

Bovary, Ruth Hunt was a long term Stonewall staffer (lesbian) who rose to CE, about 4 years ago, and almost immediately added the 'T'.

Hence the current car crash. She resigned earlier in the year and fairly quickly got elevated to the House of Lords. My private theory is that the peerage was a carrot used to get her out. Since then Stonewall have struggled to recruit a suitable replacement. Reining in the TRAs will be difficult though they seem to have moved some, like Aimee Challenor, on.

It all sounds complicated but it isnt really.

Conflict of interest.

Reputable organisations should not have hired a lobbying organisation (whatever it lobbies for) to write/create policy, whether public sector (College of Policing) or commercial (M&S or Maya's employer).

Good policy should be formed by listening to a range of stakeholders to inform how policy aims are best achieved, with a minimum number or adverse or unintended consequences. Supporting the TG community at the expense of women's rights, and without consultation, was bound to create problems. Stonewall's #no debate approach, given their reach, is completely unacceptable.

The fact that Ruth Hunt has now been given a peerage shows how this movement is part of the establishment. The important question should always be when imparting change on this scale, who benefits?

Rachel, That’s a great point. Cui Bono. I don’t know anything about Ruth Hunt, who is she? One thing I know for sure though. There’s an awful lot of misogyny on display with women being silenced or attacked for objecting to this aggressive agenda

In recent years 'diversity' has increasingly seemed centred around LGBT+, rather than, say, disabled, and there seemed to be an equality elite who shuttled between roles in Stonewall, the financial public and charity sectors
This explains a lot. So an elite group have been writing training manuals that have been adopted as policies by state sector and corporations. ‘Diversity’ was the aim, any objections would be evidence of bigotry. And this is how we arrive at Maya and Harry.

@BovaryX Im not one for conspiracy theories but I’m coming round to thinking this is an orchestrated plan. The fact that Ruth Hunt has now been given a peerage shows how this movement is part of the establishment.
The important question should always be when imparting change on this scale, who benefits? And who doesn’t? And when I start asking myself these questions, I don’t like the answers.

Ruth Hunts big failing was to fail to recognise and constrain the conflict of interest between being a lobbying organisation and an organisation that provides policy advice and training. The two are not compatible.

with people not wanting to expose themselves to someone they fear might be over sensitive.

The mechanism that seemed to happen in the City and private sectors is that organisations were reluctant to hire people from noisy and sensitive minorities for ordinary jobs: accounts clerk, IT help desk etc yet would hire them for 'diversity' roles with quite a lot of seniority attached thereby protecting the organisation from claims of discrimination or 'phobia'.

Two problems. Fewer from these minorities in ordinary jobs where they could be seen as part of the team and pulling their weight. High profile vocal people with the ear of the board pushing policies. In recent years 'diversity' has increasingly seemed centred around LGBT+, rather than, say, disabled, and there seemed to be an equality elite who shuttled between roles in Stonewall, the financial public and charity sectors, and diversity training providers.

So gender neutral toilets, even if both men and women, and a proportion of TG people wanting to lead an ordinary life, dont really want them. And the gravy train rolls on.

Stonewall under the leadership of Ruth Hunt. The buck stops with her.