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Original poster

Hello any new people to these Mumsnet FWR fields...

144 replies

pombear · 19/11/2019 19:47

You may have got here via twitter threads on today's employment tribunal.

Or you've seen a couple of women's talks or events, women's voices, women's art, yet again, be attacked and closed down by trans rights activists who want (mainly) women to stop talking about things they don't agree with. Those women might not be even actually 'talking'. they just happened to retweet opinions that other's don't like.

Maybe you're just horrified that a 'parenting site' could host 'bigots' and 'phobes' and you've just come for a look around to see how awful women can be?

A couple of things:

a) the discussion about concern for women's rights has been going on on this board for many years. Some people will use acronyms you might not be familiar with. Some people may say things that seem a bit 'wtf' to you - many of them have been involved in debate for many years and have had many discussions about the same themes you may be keen to explore. They might be a bit tired!

b) this is not a 'hive mind'. There are people here with a range of views. The great thing about this site is we're able to talk about that range of views, and discuss them (within the, at times, unfathomable rules). Take a look. Read some threads. Though, If you're looking for a 'safe space' in today's speak, this isn't it. Lots of opinions are voiced, from all aspects, some that you might not like.

Maybe take a look at this type of thread for nuanced and intelligent debate:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3738164-Fracks-reference-post

Or this one, for a great overview of the issues:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

c) This point might be difficult for those of you who have been told from other sources that this is an 'anti-trans site'. Women's rights do not = 'anti-trans'.

I know, right? It's a bit controversial!

If you give yourself time to read the linked threads above, or just wander around these boards, you may understand why this statement is true.

Take some time to hear many women's concerns about single-sex spaces, women's privacy and dignity, support for the need for single-sex women's prisons, women's refuges, and the concern for the health of young children who have gender dysphoria.

There are a couple of threads right now about women being 'de-platformed' and removed from talks, flights, etc.

Why not take a minute to actually go and look at what those women are actually saying. Many of us might not agree with everything they say - we're all different. We've been able to disagree on this site.

What world would you like to inhabit?

One that is allowed to discuss these issues.

Or one that is told that to discuss the reality of sex is either an illogical fallacy, a conspiracy theory cooked up in the '70s, a 'young belief', or wrong unless you're schooled by mainly older males who now present and identify as women.

From my experience, this board welcomes many perspectives. If people disagree, that's not a 'pile-on' , that's just something we used to call 'lots of people disagree with your opinion'.

OP posts:
SalzburgSoup · 22/11/2019 00:53

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Creepster · 22/11/2019 00:48

I have not seen anyone argue for the abolition of mens police forces or mens courts. In terms of structural change the arguments here to maintain womens rights under current structures are best described as conservative: to keep the status quo. There have been no calls for mass civil disobedience from women or structural social change.

We do that elsewhere now because we got in trouble for it here.
This is a business, we have to remind ourselves from time to time when we get frustrated with the monitization of Feminism for fun and profit.

SalzburgSoup · 22/11/2019 00:46

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SalzburgSoup · 22/11/2019 00:42

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FloralBunting · 22/11/2019 00:37

Salzburg, I imagine that pom was posting as whenever the trans thing has hit the headlines, we have had an influx, and there have indeed been many posts from women who have a nascent understanding of feminism, and who have come here curious but completely overwhelmed by a lot of it, and have ended up starting bunfights because they didn't feel welcome or know where to start. Most of us have understood her intent, and supported it.

If you have a solid grounding in feminist thought and activism, great. Lots of the women here do and it is a brilliant place for women in all stages of the journey to move things along. You've no doubt got lots to share with us, so far seemingly based on what FWR isn't doing very well in terms of demolishing the patriarchy in a revolution, but I shall be interested to read your manifesto for change in due course, if my eyes haven't gone funny from all the other manifestos I've been reading this week.

OldCrone · 22/11/2019 00:36

SalzburgSoup

Has it occurred to you that some people might have found pombear's post helpful and welcoming and not at all patronising? Or do you think everyone else is exactly like you?

If you didn't find it welcoming, and you don't think it's helpful for people like you, you can post on any other thread or start your own. I suppose you'll call me patronising now for stating the obvious.

SalzburgSoup · 22/11/2019 00:21

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Original poster
pombear · 22/11/2019 00:20

SalzburgSoup I'm not sure what your aim is, but I think I can see your arrow.

No patronising intended. I'm just a random poster who posts on these threads. Not all of us are schooled in 'real feminism'.

I'll bow out. Crack on!

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SalzburgSoup · 22/11/2019 00:17

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SalzburgSoup · 22/11/2019 00:12

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Original poster
pombear · 22/11/2019 00:08

SalzburgSoup - As with all posters here, I'm not sure how long you've been here, whether you've namechanged, lurked for five years, five months or five minutes.

Regardless:
I have not seen anyone argue for the abolition of mens police forces or mens courts. In terms of structural change the arguments here to maintain womens rights under current structures are best described as conservative: to keep the status quo. There have been no calls for mass civil disobedience from women or structural social change. Its completely unfair to be forced to defend the tiny concessions women have gained, but that's the current situation.

If you've been around a while, were you waiting for someone else to do this on your behalf? Why not start a thread if you're frustrated that noone's doing that here? I'm a bit of a crap feminist, to be honest, as I'm just keeping my head above water as a woman right now in my own life, but I'd be interested in your point of view and what action you think we should be taking.

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Original poster
pombear · 21/11/2019 23:56

Hi SalzburgSoup and appreciate your viewpoint. I don't think I was suggesting this board is in anyway a 'radical' board. I don't think I've used that word in my posts at all?

It's a sub-board of Mumsnet. A website.I don't own it!

It's a gathering place for interested people who have access to the internet and happen to be in the same place, talking about the same themes, and often disagreeing, and having different levels of knowledge, understanding, perspectives and life experience.

I was just saying hi to some new people, in my own way, probably projecting a little of my own perspective when I first came to reading this board.

That's the beauty of this board, we all get to start new threads from our own perspectives!

I completely get that others will land here very much more schooled in these issues. I would imagine my post wouldn't resonate or be relevant for them. Thanks for pointing that out.

Is there a post you'd like to start that would resonate with visitors such as yourself?

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SalzburgSoup · 21/11/2019 23:53

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SalzburgSoup · 21/11/2019 23:35

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Original poster
pombear · 21/11/2019 23:32

Waves to all the new and not-so-new posters on this thread Smile - too many of you to namecheck individually.

Lovely to meet you all, and your stories. As difficult as some of them must be for you.

Clos I know what you mean about having the confidence to post, and feeling that everyone else has said it more articulately.

I'm definitely like you. I read along for many months before posting. And hated posting first of all.

I didn't have any additional earthbreaking information to share.

But I wanted to support those patient, steady women's voices, who, at that time represented much more of a lone but important voice here. Their discussion was helping me sort things out in my own head, and return to feminism in the wider context too.

The more I did post in support, the more I realised how lovely it was to see new voices pipe up around us too, and how it may have felt for some of them to have more voices in support.

(Lurking is fab too - hey, many of us have done it for years on so many different Mumsnet threads outside of FWR, learning, laughing, rolling eyes, etc!)

And Midnight - don't feel fraudulent. The beauty of Mumsnet is that evolved to be a site that includes so many people who accidentally got here via googling random shit! If you haven't already, explore the other boards - just lots of interesting perspectives on life, and life's subjects, from mainly women. And even those who are parents often don't focus on the 'parenting' bits!

For all the frustrations, this site is very important to many people. (Which is why some other people want it gone).

OP posts:
MidnightCircus · 21/11/2019 22:10

Or would even*

MidnightCircus · 21/11/2019 22:09

Hi, been lurking/reading for a while but never been a member. Feel a tad fraudulent as I'm not a parent or even consider myself a feminist but this board has opened my eyes to the horrifying things going on.
Thanks for the welcome, going back to lurking/reading now!

334bu · 21/11/2019 21:23

Newbie waving! Now proud to be "radicalised by Mumsnet" Rock on sisters!

SoftMyrtle · 21/11/2019 20:58

Another one posting just to say I'm mostly a lurker, but talking more and more IRL - and this board is great and heartening!

PurpleHoodie · 21/11/2019 20:57

Welcome CatteSt

CatteSt · 21/11/2019 20:56

Just delurked to say hello. Following the FWR forum for a few months with interest. I work in a university and am concerned about not being able to speak out about these issues. Thanks for the thread.

Awaywiththepiskies · 21/11/2019 20:33

I also have a niece who is becoming a teenager and has been caught in the transgender mess in a manner which to me sadly looks like social contagion at her school and reminds me of a period when eating disorders really suddenly peaked at my school when I was in my teens. She is vulnerable, struggling with entering teenage years and she's struggling with gender stereotypes associated with "females" but she certainly does not need hormone blockers! What I'm seeing is really breaking my heart

Apples24 - I'm watching a niece become a nephew, with testosterone shots (at 17! who knows what it's doing to her body's health) and my SiL cheerleading - my SiL kept the whole thing from her husband (my brother & the father of this child) for a whole year. I find that unthinkable - but I can't say anything - just have to watch impotently ...

apples24 · 21/11/2019 11:54

Hi, thanks for this thread. I've been lurking around the board and reading for ages.

Probably will not become and active contributor/that involved in conversations as am not great with managing my limited time. However, will continue to read and inform myself.

Wanted to let you all know that I have found this board really informative with some extremely eloquent (and patient!) posters and the board has really helped me to become much more confident and articulate in understanding/defending my position which previously was more of a "gut instinct".

I grew up in the 80s in rural Scandinavia and by today's standards some parents (definitely not my mum though!) would absolutely have medicalised me. I also have a niece who is becoming a teenager and has been caught in the transgender mess in a manner which to me sadly looks like social contagion at her school and reminds me of a period when eating disorders really suddenly peaked at my school when I was in my teens. She is vulnerable, struggling with entering teenage years and she's struggling with gender stereotypes associated with "females" but she certainly does not need hormone blockers! What I'm seeing is really breaking my heart.

Finally, as a new mum of a little son, this board gives me confidence in how to raise him up so that he understands his biological sex but is not burdened by gender stereotypes.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 20/11/2019 23:01

Not that you have to post if you don't want to, but everyone's contributions are valuable! Well, other than the sealions, cause "arf" isn't that interesting.

ClosdesMouches · 20/11/2019 22:59

Great post Pom.

I wish I had more confidence to post a bit more here but I just post now and then and rarely actually contribute anything to the discussion. Unless it's something I actually know and feel sure about. So many intelligent, articulate women here that my contributions aren't necessary, but I do read every day.

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