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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Hello any new people to these Mumsnet FWR fields...

144 replies

pombear · 19/11/2019 19:47

You may have got here via twitter threads on today's employment tribunal.

Or you've seen a couple of women's talks or events, women's voices, women's art, yet again, be attacked and closed down by trans rights activists who want (mainly) women to stop talking about things they don't agree with. Those women might not be even actually 'talking'. they just happened to retweet opinions that other's don't like.

Maybe you're just horrified that a 'parenting site' could host 'bigots' and 'phobes' and you've just come for a look around to see how awful women can be?

A couple of things:

a) the discussion about concern for women's rights has been going on on this board for many years. Some people will use acronyms you might not be familiar with. Some people may say things that seem a bit 'wtf' to you - many of them have been involved in debate for many years and have had many discussions about the same themes you may be keen to explore. They might be a bit tired!

b) this is not a 'hive mind'. There are people here with a range of views. The great thing about this site is we're able to talk about that range of views, and discuss them (within the, at times, unfathomable rules). Take a look. Read some threads. Though, If you're looking for a 'safe space' in today's speak, this isn't it. Lots of opinions are voiced, from all aspects, some that you might not like.

Maybe take a look at this type of thread for nuanced and intelligent debate:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3738164-Fracks-reference-post

Or this one, for a great overview of the issues:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

c) This point might be difficult for those of you who have been told from other sources that this is an 'anti-trans site'. Women's rights do not = 'anti-trans'.

I know, right? It's a bit controversial!

If you give yourself time to read the linked threads above, or just wander around these boards, you may understand why this statement is true.

Take some time to hear many women's concerns about single-sex spaces, women's privacy and dignity, support for the need for single-sex women's prisons, women's refuges, and the concern for the health of young children who have gender dysphoria.

There are a couple of threads right now about women being 'de-platformed' and removed from talks, flights, etc.

Why not take a minute to actually go and look at what those women are actually saying. Many of us might not agree with everything they say - we're all different. We've been able to disagree on this site.

What world would you like to inhabit?

One that is allowed to discuss these issues.

Or one that is told that to discuss the reality of sex is either an illogical fallacy, a conspiracy theory cooked up in the '70s, a 'young belief', or wrong unless you're schooled by mainly older males who now present and identify as women.

From my experience, this board welcomes many perspectives. If people disagree, that's not a 'pile-on' , that's just something we used to call 'lots of people disagree with your opinion'.

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StewedPrune · 22/11/2019 22:00

Hello, long time lurker here, thanks for the welcome. Find these boards a really useful resource on gender critical feminism. I've become increasingly concerned over the last few years about the way public discourse has developed and what might happen to our laws in future.

OldCrone · 22/11/2019 15:56

This is the background to the Maya Forstater case in her own words.

medium.com/@MForstater/i-lost-my-job-for-speaking-up-about-womens-rights-2af2186ae84

Melroses · 22/11/2019 12:09

Just caught up with that Ricky Gervaise video. Totally spot on. Priceless Grin

Datun · 22/11/2019 12:06

For anyone who wants to understand the Maya Forstater case, which has been reported recently in the news, Maya herself has amalgamated all the live tweeting and made an easy to read link.

medium.com/@MForstater/live-tweets-from-the-tribunal-5bd28f8e39c1

FloralBunting · 22/11/2019 11:30
Datun · 22/11/2019 11:22

Fortunately there is a remedy: grey rock. If you think someone is doing this, you simply ignore them and talk round them, name checking the posters you actually want to talk to. Bit like ignoring a toddler tantrum.

Excellent advice BarbaraStrozzi.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 22/11/2019 11:19

And also by people who give guitar lessons, those bastards.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 22/11/2019 11:18

My auntie's best mate's cousin's son's budgie finds that very offensive!

Datun · 22/11/2019 11:16

And yes, if you're offended by this warm and helpful thread because it doesn't accommodate your personal, customised, tailor made and subjectively relevant experience...then yep, the guitar lessons are not for you.

Datun · 22/11/2019 11:14

Haha! That's brilliant Toorahtoorahaye.

And spookily topical.

The complainant in the Harry Miller case wasn't even on Twitter. They couldn't even read Harry's tweets. Someone else, a very helpful soul, showed them the tweets so they could get offended!

It's like four degrees of separation.

I know someone who once knew somebody who lived next door to a person who was offended by that, so you can fuck off.

Toorahtoorahaye · 22/11/2019 11:05

Bernard m.youtube.com/watch?v=L3dxMGzt5mU

Uncompromisingwoman · 22/11/2019 11:04

Thank you Lou. This is another one of those lovely threads that give lots of women the chance to quietly delurk. And thank you pombear Smile

Melroses · 22/11/2019 11:02

Thanks. It totally spoiled what was a really helpful thread.

LouMumsnet · 22/11/2019 10:56

Morning all. Thanks for the reports about that rather goady poster. We've had a look behind the scenes and can see that they've now deregged so we've removed all their posts from the thread.

As you were. Wink

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 22/11/2019 10:13

I don’t want any fucking guitar lessons

Who's making you have them Toorahtoorahaye. should we send help??

Toorahtoorahaye · 22/11/2019 09:41

I don’t want any fucking guitar lessons

SlightlyWizened · 22/11/2019 08:54

I mostly lurk, post occasionally, learn a huge amount and really appreciate the time and effort many FWR regulars make.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 22/11/2019 08:39

Fantastic to see (most of) the delurkers Flowers

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 22/11/2019 06:51

It is terrifying to see what's essentially a new religion being enforced via law and corporate regulations. It was heartening to see the judge in Harry's case recognizing very quickly that the assumptions being made were illogical and the demands made based on them therefore unreasonable. Will be interesting to read the ruling when it comes out.

user1473069303 · 22/11/2019 06:46

Hi all,

I've been lurking around these parts for the past few weeks, on the one hand enjoying the eloquence and intelligence of the posters but on the other very shocked about the subject matter being discussed.

So it's OK to not believe in a god, it's also more than OK to reject the flat earth theory, but refusing to believe that people can change sex - which is a fact of life - can land you in a world of pain. It is fucking terrifying.

definitelygc · 22/11/2019 03:33

@SalzburgSoup I'm new here and also have a pretty extensive background in feminist thought, including being part of campaign groups etc. Personally I thought it was pretty clear the OP was not aimed at me but rather at people who might be thinking about this stuff for the first time and cluttering up the board with basic questions.

You have every right to say it's patronising (as you have) and others have every right to disagree with you (as they have). It's almost impossible to get the tone right when you're typing like this so I think whether an individual post comes across as patronising or not is a pretty boring debate to have. We're not going to get structural change, as you mention, by debating "the lens" of a Mumsnet post.

I've not heard anyone on here claim to be "radical" (apart from in a tongue in cheek way). That's a label that seems to have been foisted upon this group. And I don't think anyone genuinely thinks Mumsnet is going to be the thing that overthrows the patriarchy.

However, there are some people who started on these boards who are now at the very sharp end of this and I'm interested to hear what they have to say. As I'm sure you're aware, one of these women was up in court this week fighting for all of our rights to talk about feminism without losing our jobs. Deeds not words and I'm grateful to her for that.

Datun · 22/11/2019 02:45

👍

APerkyPumpkin · 22/11/2019 02:44

Exactly...anyway I am going to try and get some sleep.

Datun · 22/11/2019 02:43

🤣 he actually never said a truer word

APerkyPumpkin · 22/11/2019 02:41

Judge - phobia is a particularly strong word. What do you say it means?

Counsel for P - its almost irrelevant what it means

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