Raising a theybe: "alienated babies"

That is some fucked up parenting.

I think they are feeling pressure from school re gendered items

I'm pretty sure the pressure isn't coming from the school in this case.

(though this is the nonsense some wish to pressure all children with, thank fuck mine are grown, I never much fancied home schooling)

I feel incredibly sad having read this. Life as an 8 year old should be much simpler, less "new" words & more encouragement that boys and girls can play with any toy & wear any colour

It is very telling when one of the previous quotes mentions how they hope that a visit to the gender clinic will meet "our" needs.

So much of this shite is about validating the self-image of the parents as so terribly, terribly progressive and open-minded.

Does long hair on a boy make him any less of a boy? Don't be ridiculous

To be fair, the mother did remind him that both girls and boys can have long hair, and that it didn't mean he was a girl.

But - learning that the reason he wanted her to use gender neutral pronouns when it was just the two of them was because some people think he's a girl because of his hair, didn't stop her affirming him, deciding to use gender neutral pronouns for him at all times and to think about asking the school to change his name on the register from his full name which is obviously a boy's name to the NN she uses for him - a shortened version of his full name which could be either a girl's or a boy's name. (Not something he's actually asked for, as far as I can tell).

Her DS has decided actually he wanted he/him pronouns the next day:

Soooooo. . . . Up date.
This morning I asked "what pronouns would the royal we like today you majesty?" Kiddo laughed and said "I am him!". I commented "that's different from yesterday?"

Kiddo said they are feeling braver today to "stand up to being a boy".

This was at school run so not much chance to comfortably pick at thier meaning but I think [child's name] is feeling pressure due to long hair looking more feminine.

Will chat again after school :)

This lot honestly think they're letting their child lead the way. Like the vast majority of parents they want the best for their DC and want to protect them from harm. And I'm totally with them on the idea that girls and boys can choose whichever gender stereotypes - or none - to experiment with. But I think they don't understand how sexist, damaging and alienating it is for a child to be given the idea that sex isn't real but they can pick their gender identity based on how much they "feel" like a girl/boy. I think they think they're creating a brave new world.

They don't understand how they're influencing their DC by asking about it, and by simply opening up the possibility that they might be a "demi girl" or whatever. You can well see how this might appeal to DC who feel different from their peers e.g. because of autism or psychological conditions. I don't ever see them talking about questioning their child's gender or encouraging them to think maybe they might be "cis", once they've said they're trans or NB.

From the same mother:

I have asked quite a bit -are you a boy? Are you us girl? Both? Neither? when they were younger and kiddo has always, so far, said they were cis.
Even tonight when I asked "you think you look like a girl? Do you feel like a girl?" they shook those luscious locks and said "I know I am a boy, I just like girl things too". They looked nervous - I think poor soul was worried I would moan about gendering hobbies and clothes :-/ tbf that is something that gets my goat when other people do it!

I told them I love lego even though people tell me it's for boys only theyve been ticked etc but its same stuff I've said before. I think they are feeling pressure from school re gendered items. Maybe other kids are more sure in thier identity? Maybe kids are asking them 'are you a girl' and its confusing them?

Or MAYBE you're constantly questioning their gender and they know you'd be delighted if they said they were NB and it's confusing the fuck out of them?! Aargh!!

See, this mother obviously wants to do the right thing for her child. But somehow she's got caught up in this gender identity bullshit - along with thousands of others, this isn't such an extreme niche as you might think - and is confusing the fuck out of her child. And herself IMO.

I reckon Nikki is Adamasgender- a gender which refuses to be categorised.

Is Nikki Sixx non binary or a demi girl?

I heard a rumour yesterday that Motley Crue, Def Leppard and Poison are getting together for a joint stadium tour next year.

If they are really lucky they'll be able to catch sight of adult males not only with long hair, but wearing make up!

(unfortunately rumour only appears to apply to the US)

I've had a few colleagues who were long haired, maybe bald on top, and bearded. Software developers, if you talked to them about being 'non binary' it would not compute.

My son, now 20, has hair down to his arse. My 47 year olds brother has long hair. I also have various long haired male friends. All would be happy to fall about laughing at the idea their long hair makes them 'girls'.

I could have lent out my partner back in the day but he's bald now. Happens to men with long hair just as often as the short haired variety. Almost like male pattern baldness is linked to sex, not presentation.

Do none of these people know any male adults with long hair? Take them to a metal festival, maybe it'll calm them down.

I mean, I'd offer my DH as an example but I don't think he'd appreciate being grilled about his gender by a bunch of people who won't take "no thank you I don't want any" for an answer.

What we’ve done as a family is talk about all these things openly in a general kind of way, and then check in with him on his own every few months, to make sure he’s feeling good and we are still supporting in the way he needs to be supported.

"Are you trans yet? Well, you said you weren't in July, what about now? Still no? No problem, we'll be asking again in January, and then in May, and then..."

Why are they badgering that poor kid?

he said it was because of his long hair, people think he's a girl

Christ this stuff makes me want to scream. Will a prepubescent boy with long hair occasionally be mistaken for a girl? Yes. It happened to my long haired son from time to time prior to puberty. It is an easy mistake to make in prepubescent children. Does long hair on a boy make him any less of a boy? Don't be ridiculous.

Bloody hell, arethere

I hope whoever sees them at the gender clinic tells these parents not to be so bloody silly.

There’s something very arrogant about throwing out everything our forebears had learned about child rearing.

Yes. She's very interesting on the intimate dynamics of families. I think, rather than either anti-genderist or anti-gender critical, she's rebelling against the entire Parenting Industry.

She's a really provoking writer and gives a lot of pause for thought, I think.

thirdfiddle your post is absolutely spot on.

I'm in an online group with a bunch of parents who believe that their DC will reveal their gender to them when they're old enough. I was invited by someone a few months back who doesn't know me nearly as well as she thinks she does, who assumed I'd be into this stuff. I stay as it's like a slow moving car crash I find it hard to look away from.

Comments from two mothers of boys stood out to me this week. Both of their sons identify as boys. But both mothers seem to be trying to hold on to the possibility that their DC might be trans or non-binary.

This, for example:

Our oldest is trans non-binary. He most identifies with the term gender creative, in part because he prefers to keep his male name and pronouns for now. He’s 7.5. What we’ve done as a family is talk about all these things openly in a general kind of way, and then check in with him on his own every few months, to make sure he’s feeling good and we are still supporting in the way he needs to be supported.

We have an appointment at the end of this month with a gender clinic, just to find out what our future options might be, and what to look for in terms of puberty if he decides he’d like some kind of intervention like puberty blockers

Why on earth are they talking to a gender clinic?! He isn't showing any signs of identifying as a girl, despite their frequent questioning. This is nuts.

The other mother is asking for advice as her DS clearly IDs as male but has asked his mother to use non-binary pronouns, just at home and not tell anyone. This was after lots of conversations about pronouns from the mother, and he said it was because of his long hair, people think he's a girl. Here's some of the advice given:

Id say as a non-binary person ask. Ask them if they are someone other than a boy or girl and then if offer to look through lists or genders online to see if they can find one that fits. Seems like they are giving clear signals to me. If they were cis would you be questioning outright affirming them?

I think the answer to the last sentence is yes, she would be questioning it if he was "cis" as that's exactly what she and the other parents in the group are doing. Constant questioning of their kids, until they give them the answer they so desperately want to hear - that their kid is extra special and they can now demonstrate how wonderfully accepting they are.

Once the DC have been deemed trans or non binary, do their parents still constantly question them, to check they're not actually "cis"? Do they fuck. Because that'd be "conversion therapy" and what they need is affirmation.

They honestly can't see what they're doing, is my perception. They really think they're supporting their DC in expressing their true selves, when what they're actually doing is gaslighting them and very damaging.

There are loads of these parents about btw. Not just the small number who hit the press.

Lawyers and therapists are going to make a lot of money out of the fall out from this in years to come.

What worries me most about this is that the children will likely become more and more isolated as they get older. Their peers aren't going to accept this horseshit without questions, and the kids have been trained to view questioning as both a personal attack and an attack on the worldview of their family unit. How are they going to form and maintain friendships with kids their age? Childhood play tends to involve a lot of conversation in which X is a girl and Y is a boy stuff comes up. Will children who say that stuff be banned from coming to play again? Will Hazel be banned from going to the houses of friends unless a promise can be extracted from their parents to play along with the demi-girl stuff? Even parents willing to do that would likely balk at "demi daughter".

What happens when they hit their teens? How are they going to square dating with the expectations of both themselves and their parents? Despite the best efforts of the trans lobby the potential dating pool of peers willing to play along 100% all the time is likely to be limited. How do you teach a female child what she needs to know about the ways in which boys and men can present a danger to here when you're pretending sex doesn't exist?

It just seems like their world is going to get narrower and narrower until they either give up on even trying to find any sort of social contacts outside their family or rebel and run away from it all. Both scenarios are psychologically damaging. It's kind of like what you see with kids raised in religious cults, but with a much smaller group of "approved" peers to mix with.

Gender neutral in the sense of rejecting stereotypes is good - but it seems like these misguided people are trying to raise their children sex-neutral which isn't possible and is liable to be damaging.

I read the first pages of that Lang, and I was reminded of my parents’ generation, where scientists believed they could do better than nature with baby formula.

There’s something very arrogant about throwing out everything our forebears had learned about child rearing.

What is really crossing a line is setting these poor kids up for the publicity. Don't do that. Don't film them and broadcast it. Don't use them in this way.

Kids deserve privacy. It's a consent and safeguarding issue.

‘ Parents undertaking a gender-neutral approach usually aspire to ‘freeing’ their children from rigid gender stereotypes, so that they can ‘achieve their full potential’. But Hazel’s speech to camera serves as a warning of the dangers of raising a child without such a meaningful framework. It means the child is cut off from the frameworks which root him or her in a particular family, and connect him or her to the wider world.’

I read this as a critique of a gender critical approach too. It’s saying gender is important to upbringing, isn’t it? So GC sceptical AND genderist sceptical.

I think sex is important to recognise in bringing up kids (and leads to lots of interesting conversations about gender) but I don’t respect gender as a directive category for child-rearing.

There’s likely harms in bringing up any child in any narrow political environment, though and I get all of what is being said about that.

In my view children have the right to understand their own bodies and how they function. Denying them the factual knowledge of their sex denies this and puts them at risk physically and psychologically.

As a girl I was prone to urinary tract infections. My brother never got them. I remember thinking how unfair that was and also being worried that I was doing something wrong. As my parents weren't denying my sex my mum was able to take me aside and explain that girls and women have smaller bladders and shorter urethras. That it wasn't that my brother was doing something right that I wasn't. It was just down to physiology. She was able to both empathise with my sense of unfairness and set aside my fears.

How can a parent explain these things if they won't acknowledge sex? How can they prepare their child for puberty? How can they answer simple questions about where babies come from? It is cruel to pretend sex doesn't matter.

Vegan-cat territory?