Defence lawyer says that the Gender Recognition Act has placed the State in an impossible position with regard to transgender prisoners

Oh, and re: getting a GRC after conviction vs before, one of the earliest GRCs was issued to a murderer and rapist in order in prison.
In fact, James Barrett of Charing Cross gender identity clinic argued, in court, that in order to fulfil the requirements of 'living as a woman' to get his GRC, he HAD to be transferred to the women's prison.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3370661-2009-case-of-a-judge-ordering-an-intact-male-rapist-into-a-female-prison-because-he-had-a-GRC#add_message

2009, so a full decade of 'put this poor rapist in with the women, it's cruel to him not to', and only "the sort of women who enjoy conflict" (referring to female prisoners) will object.

They considered the prison problem in 2003. They just didn't care much.
See David Lammy:

Another thing that really concerns me about this is the recording of stats. This person is a sex and child abuse offender, these crimes will be recorded as committed by a female presumably. If this is the case we're going to see the number of female sex offenders skyrocketing when in reality, they haven't.

But yes, you're right. They are completely blindsided that somebody would identify as a woman if they weren't forced and absolutely prostrate with distress over the entire issue.

Which serves to underline the misogyny of the males nodding this through. They seem unable to grasp the bad actor risk because lowering your status to that of women is inconcievable.

thirdfiddle

Datun, I assumed they meant the GRC itself since in Ireland that is obtained by self ID.

Yes, I think you're right. Even though we all said that would happen, when it does, I'm still so shocked that they didn't see it coming. It's almost like I'm trying to find another reason.

But yes, you're right. They are completely blindsided that somebody would identify as a woman if they weren't forced and absolutely prostrate with distress over the entire issue.

The stupidity is almost difficult to grasp.

If self-ID is introduced, it won’t be long before this becomes a common practice.

Current policy in the UK says that prisoners should be allocated to a prison according to their "legally recognised gender".

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/825621/transgender-pf.pdf

Thirdfiddle

From The Mirror However, she was in possession of a gender recognition certificate by the time her case came before the court last July, and is now being accommodated with other female prisoners.

The wording reads as if this prisoner obtained the GRC post crimes and pre trial.

@BickerinBrattle that's an amazing post

a pre-operative, pre-hormone therapy, male-to-female transgender prisoner

Gosh that's an unwieldy phrase. If only there were a simple way to describe such a person.

I would just hope that prison officers will have anticipated that & be ready to change their gender identity at short notice.

It has occurred to me that there are abundant employment opportunities in self ID for big burly 6'5" blokes willing to 'identify' as women at opportune moments.

Datun, I assumed they meant the GRC itself since in Ireland that is obtained by self ID. Would be interesting to know whether the GRC predated the crime or just the trial, and how they present - but not solve anything.

The naivety of those enacting these pieces of legislation never ceases to astound.

In the past men have gone to the lengths of training as teachers, priests, doctors, setting up entire charities all so they can gain access to women and children and abuse them. Yet somehow it is unthinkable that the same sort of men would go through all the hassle of filling in a form for the same purpose?

Also, body searches according to gender identity mentioned. Again. I know prison officers are a no nonsense bunch, but given this offender's grim record, female officers having to do searches is so inappropriate.

I would just hope that prison officers will have anticipated that & be ready to change their gender identity at short notice.

They sound very mixed up to me.

I thought it was only transwomen in possession of a grc at the time of the crime who would be sent to a female prison. To eliminate chancers. (A few years ago when I first read about it, only about 200 had been issued in Ireland).

This person has a grc.

So is the 'self identification' they're talking about something to do with their presentation? Does this person look, sound, and act exactly like you would expect from a man? Is that the problem?

And yes to whoever said criminals will just be applying for a grc as a matter of course.

Bickerin Yes, that's well put.

Bickerin, that's pretty much exactly what a male friend said when I objected to self ID. (That male offenders wouldn't demean themselves I mean, not your more sophisticated understanding of the situation.) I thought at the time it was so naive, sure enough cases emerging on a regular basis since.

Also, body searches according to gender identity mentioned. Again. I know prison officers are a no nonsense bunch, but given this offender's grim record, female officers having to do searches is so inappropriate.

Apologies for posting again so quickly, but it crossed my mind the other day.

Any man considering a crime spree, who thinks it might be nicer to spend time behind bars in a women’s prison, or indeed simply would take pleasure from messing with the system, has every incentive to go and get himself a GRC before he starts.

If self-ID is introduced, it won’t be long before this becomes a common practice.

I thought I read on here that prisons in Ireland were still to be separated by sex, despite self-id

Yes, I also read there was an exemption in the GRA specifically for prisons whereby even males with a GRC can be excluded from women's prisons, Nic W. of Fair Play for Women spoke about that.

Maybe Limerick women's prison is ignoring the exemption?
Seeing as most organisations are now ignoring the exemptions in the equality act that allow females to retain their spaces, that's probably what's happened here.

More on this particular prisoner in Ireland here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3644511-Transgender-sex-offender-in-womens-prison-in-Ireland

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3655875-Irish-feminists-what-the-hell-is-happening-over-there

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3691029-Fully-male-sex-offender-demands-and-given-access-to-womens-prison-under-self-id

www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/sex-offender-undergoing-male-female-16623261

www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/male-born-transgender-sex-offender-20051834

I thought the legislation was in order that transgender people could self-declare

It was, because there's nothing else other than self declaration. Reforming the legislation is just about how and to whom one self declares. Anyway, transition is a treatment, not a correction.

I'm still not understanding why the sex exemption is not used. Does Ireland not have that as part of their legislation?

Isn’t it interesting. Ireland and other jurisdictions where they have self-ID are held up as some kind of best practice model by U.K. politicians.

And yet THEY ARE WAY BEHIND.

The U.K. government have introduced self-ID into prisons illegally, by stealth.

Now it turns out that in one of the few countries where this has already been made law have suddenly come up against reality and are going “shit... we may have created a problem”.

Whereas the U.K., who have rushed blindly ahead have already had problems, but as none of it is official, they have to be swept under the carpet.

I’ve been thinking for a while that the U.K. hold these other places up as models. But I live in one of those countries and because there’s a huge difference in the way people act compared with in the U.K., it simply isn’t a comparable situation. People here tend naturally to uphold the law. I think that’s long gone in wider British society.

And it’s noteable too that in Ireland, though they’ve gone ahead and followed the letter of the law, they obviously immediately anticipated problems and gave this prisoner “guards” ostensibly to protect them, but in reality more likely the other way round.

It’s just very revealing. The U.K. appears to be heading towards a situation of anarchy because the police and prison services are being directed to ignore the law.

Measures that should be taken include ... body searches which are conducted in accordance with the expressed gender of the transgender prisoner.
So female prison officers have to search male-bodied prisoners.
Bicker nailed it.

Er....we told you so?

Bicker - beautifully and accurately put

I thought I read on here that prisons in Ireland were still to be separated by sex, despite self-id.