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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender Identity ideology - New Religious Movement in formation?

58 replies

NonnyMouse1337 · 16/11/2019 09:45

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and come from a cultural background where belief in some sort of god and religion is a part of nearly everyone's life. It doesn't even occur to most people that belief in god or religion is optional; they simply perpetuate and parrot whatever ideology they were raised with, even very clever individuals that I know who are doctors, scientists, etc. Religion and culture overlap greatly and people seem unable or unwilling to question things or don't see the point in upsetting the status quo.

Anyway my intense love for science, logic and understanding how things worked meant it was only a matter of time before my doubts about The Truth became too numerous and I had to admit it was a load of shite. I looked at other mainstream religions and saw the same characteristics and realised they were shite too. Eventually I had to admit I was an atheist.

However, I have retained a grim fascination for understanding religious beliefs, how religions and ideologies evolve, why do people believe in things that are demonstrably untrue or have no real evidence, how belief systems attract new followers and perpetuate itself etc.
I would have liked to maybe pursue this lifelong interest as some sort of academic research, but I don't think I am cut out to be a detached researcher in this topic. It generates a very visceral response in me of hate, disgust, anger and sadness due to my experiences with the Jehovah's Witnesses and my personal journey as a religious apostate.

Nevertheless I still ponder on these topics as an amateur. I find human behaviour frustratingly illogical but predominantly predictable and I have noticed certain common threads that run through ideologies and beliefs over time.
While I am just as fallible as anyone else and not immune to succumbing to any kind of ideology, I find my background as an apostate helps me stay a bit alert, a bit sensitive to certain words or phrases, a bit wary when I get a 'whiff of bullshit', feel my skin crawl or my spidey-sense starts tingling especially when everyone around me seems to be going along with something.

I plan on buying Eileen Barker's book on New Religious Movements to learn more, but in the meantime I can't help but view the current phenomenon around Gender Identity ideology as the birth and formation of a New Religious Movement.

Religious and faith movements have come and gone for millennia. Humans seem predisposed to grasping for order and sense in a chaotic world and find different routes for this purpose. It does appear, though, that the more chaotic and unstable the world, the more likely people are to turn to magical thinking and superstitious beliefs as a way of protecting themselves or distracting themselves from the reality they live in.
People who are happy, healthy and feel a sense of purpose and connection with their communities feel less inclined to jump onto bandwagons and movements.

While global standards of living have increased overall, the past 10 years or so has seen wealth inequalities increase in Western economies. The self-destructive political ideology of austerity and neoliberalism has meant that investment in public services has declined drastically as well as economic productivity. Extracting short term gain for the wealthy at the expense of our collective long-term future is the goal. Compared to previous generations, people are earning less, in less secure jobs with paltry pensions, unable to climb the housing ladder due to extremely inflated property prices and lack of social housing and so on.

While membership of organised religions are falling, people's desire for grasping onto beliefs in a chaotic world haven't decreased. The rise of 'woo' is a testament to this. As funding for physical and mental health provision has fallen, the rise in energy healing, crystal healing, the bizarre devotion for 'eastern philosophies' and so on is becoming popular to cater to people's physical aches and pains and mental health issues. Food fads and various ways to remove 'toxic' things internally and externally keep appearing. We have the looming threat of climate change on our doorstep, so it's easier for people to block it out and focus on selfies, cosmetic surgeries, fashions in the quest to unearth and celebrate 'who you really are'. Much easier to focus on the individual and the superficial because it's actually pretty difficult to face deep seated, collective problems.

Gender Identity ideology appears to me to be a way of blocking out collective problems and focusing on pointless individualistic issues that ultimately have no bearing on ourselves and our species. Pronoun 'crimes' are more devastating and infuriating than a lack of decent and affordable housing, for example.

Gender Identity ideology is fascinating because it is similar to many other types of NRMs but also has some differences due to rise in internet technology.

NRMs tend to appeal predominantly to relatively well educated and middle class young people. They are not burdened by the responsibilities of looking after young or old family members, so have the time to invest in these activities. Women seem especially susceptible to NRMs.

These ideologies don't necessarily have to have a religious or spiritual element. They can arise from all sorts of political, social and philosophical movements. The underlying structure is the same. People looking for meaning, purpose, community and unconditional acceptance (except these forms of acceptance are rarely unconditional).

Conventional NRMs have followers congregate in physical spaces, maybe a retreat or ashram, but due to the internet, you can now have online and networked social spaces as an easy substitute. A lot of young people spend considerable time online and Gender Identity ideology is known to have crystallised and evolved in spaces like Tumblr. They are least likely to read traditional news sources and instead rely on alternative media for their news and facts. Online algorithms tend to show you only things you are interested in and the ability to block and ban material you disagree with means you have generated a very effective bubble of groupthink without having to live in a spiritual retreat for months or years.

Gender Identity ideology is a fairly decentralised movement i.e. there is no single figurehead leading it, but there are several key players. Powerful organisations like Stonewall lobby and influence society outside of the movement by promoting materials with their doctrines. Self-styled gurus are popular amongst the adherents on YouTube and Instagram - these non-binary and trans superstars showing believers how amazing their lives are and your life could be awesome like theirs too.

This is a movement in its infancy so we are currently seeing the expansion / proselytising phase. They need sufficient first generation converts if they are to carry on as a movement. All NRMs have this aggressive proselytising phase as far as I'm aware. This is because although they quickly gain followers and admirers, NRMs by their nature have very high turnovers. Very few followers become hardcore, long-term believers. Most followers remain loosely associated on the fringes and many lose interest after a few years. The novelty of the doctrines wear off and they find other movements that catch their attention or find the pressures of life don't leave them with time for such indulgences, or they feel disillusionment with the community and acceptance they were promised.

It will be interesting to see if this NRM manages to evolve into the more longer-term and stable phase. The subsequent generations born into this ideology due to their parents being adherents, will be more likely to question and rebel.
What happens when a teenager raised to have unquestioning faith in gender identity challenges their parents upon learning about the immutability of biological sex or the lack of evidence of a gendered soul. Will they be kicked out of home for disagreeing and rebelling? I think so.

Interested to hear what others think about this.

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StopThePlanet · 12/12/2019 17:48

Scientology is so creepy with its level of financial clout and the extent of its harassment

Exactly! And is why is see them as the most closely aligned with gender ideology movement.

NonnyMouse1337 · 12/12/2019 17:22

Holy moly StopThePlanet that's a pretty scary experience! Absolutely awful for you. I would have been terrified too.

Scientology is so creepy with its level of financial clout and the extent of its harassment. I don't know how anyone falls for such a blatant Ponzi scheme but I guess vulnerable people can make foolish decisions and then find themselves locked into such a group, especially if they have a lot of money tied into it.

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StopThePlanet · 12/12/2019 16:53

I am fascinated by the religions and faith-based ideologies.

Should have said...

I'm fascinated by the religions and faith-based ideologies of the world throughout history.

StopThePlanet · 12/12/2019 16:52

Fantastic thread!

I want to dig in on this but in order for me to fully express myself I have to be able to speak the truth which is banned here. So in the interest of avoiding the banhammer I'm going to tread lightly.

Growing up Roman Catholic was a distinct experience especially so considering my parents divorced when I was in first grade - my mother was excommunicated as a result but my father and stepmother (married three months after divorce) were accepted with open arms. Somehow my mother became an unwanted and dirty soul after being a devoted Catholic from the moment of her birth and getting divorced while my father converted shortly after my parents married. Transwidows anyone? Yes much different but also very much the same. The marginalization, excommunication, shaming, and quiet/hidden ejection of my mom from her large Catholic family and continued embrace for my father was a mind-fuck for my mom and for me as a very observant and empathetic child. She had become a 'whore' even though she followed all the rules... she wasn't an adulterer my father was (apparent to all around us including myself) however she paid the price for his sins and he got the glory for her piety. I see strong similarities between Roman Catholicism and gender ideology.

The hierarchies, ritual behaviors, tithe, acceptance without exception, feelings/faith without regard for facts, and so much more are parallel.

Because of where I live I have had a very up close and personal experience with Scientology. Clearwater Florida is the global Scientology hub - their global headquarters are there and many of the city businesses are owned by either the Church of Scientology or scientologists. 20 years ago before I realized what Clearwater was all about I went to many job interviews there and on one occasion was locked in an office building. When they explained to me that in order to work for their office as an accounting clerk I would have to convert to Scientology, move into one of their apartments (5+ people to a 2 bedroom 1 bath) as all new converts have to do (unless wealthy or famous or older and established), accept Scientology as my guiding force, accept L. Ron Hubbard as my prophet, and pay for classes as well as rent in the apartment which would leave me some pocket change as I move through Scientology classes with possibility of making a substantial salary sometime in the future. They explained that while these trades of my freedom may sound harsh it was required to work for them and that through these sacrifices I would become enlightened, experience more intense joy, more wealth, and more peace through Scientology. Naturally as an atheist and former Catholic I found it to be preposterous and but told them in a polite and professional way that I was just looking for a job not a religion or a new way of life. As I left the interview room I was followed by the person who was interviewing me as well as two other scientologists (appeared from nowhere) trying to convince me all the way to the door that this was the path for me; when I reach the door it was locked I asked them to unlock it. I stood at the locked door trapped beside it by three men - tears streaming down my face pleading to be released as they tried to break me down and convince me that I should join their 'path of enlightenment'. Finally I screamed at them that my boyfriend knew their company name and address and that I should have been home already... I said "if you do not release me my boyfriend will come looking for me with the police". They then unlocked the door but before clearing my path to exit they asked me to not say anything to anyone like every abuser does and being a good little survivor I promised to not utter a word. Something about them terrified me to my core (beyond trapping me) and while I couldn't put my finger on it all I wanted to do was put millions of miles of distance between them and me.

As a result of my interactions and exposures to Scientology I think that it is probably the best ideology to compare to gender ideology. I can dig in much deeper on the subject as a result of my experiences and research I've done post-exposure. The way people became accepting of Scientology around here is very similar to how gender ideology is taking over... lots of money involved, claims to be science-minded therefore factual, and so on and so forth. Much like gender ideology if an individual decides to leave the Church of Scientology they are shunned by their family and friends who are not allowed to have any further contact as the liberated are considered essentially 'dead'. The liberated are smeared on social media, attacked at their new employers by erroneous fabricated complaints, stalked at their homes and businesses, and in cases where the liberated kept their money with the Church (as is recommended to mostly youth) they relinquish all earnings and savings to the church upon separation. Furthermore, upon separation the church puts together insane lists of charges/invoices for compulsory classes that the liberated has supposedly taken (or did take) and takes people to court to sue them for payment on these classes because they signed a contract when converting to Scientology enforceable by the judicial system. Dissension or lack of capitulation yields complete alienation from everybody they knew, their jobs, and homes.

The subject is seriously fascinating to me and much like you OP, as an atheist, I am fascinated by the religions and faith-based ideologies.

/rant fin

DreadPirateLuna · 11/12/2019 17:30

I was raised Catholic (long since lapsed) and I can completely see the parallels.

"I believe in gender identity, the pronouns almighty... I reject the terfs and all their unholy works..."

I also see parallels in the way child safeguarding is pushed aside in favour of protecting those in the "hierarchy". Only a minority of priests/transwomen are abusive, but when your first instinct is to deny and cover up for your buddies rather than protect the innocent, something is desperately wrong.

NonnyMouse1337 · 11/12/2019 13:49

Cheers :)

There's some pretty interesting stats in this article I've been reading today.

newhumanist.org.uk/articles/5501/the-complex-picture-of-religion-and-atheism-today

Although the numbers of people identifying with long-established religions is declining rapidly, I think there's still life left in the churches due to their significant wealth and ability to influence politics and public.

While the modern era and secularism starts to wane, I wonder if we will see significant pushback against postmodernism by religious groups, especially the well organised ones....

As it shrinks, the Church’s centre of gravity is moving towards the evangelical, reflecting the position of Archbishop Justin Welby, and those around him. In a blog post for the London School of Economics, Linda Woodhead and Greg Smith concluded that the Church is likely to shift from the “moderate religion of the people to a more sectarian religion for an evangelical minority”.

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hipsterfun · 11/12/2019 13:28

Great thread!

Gender Identity ideology - New Religious Movement in formation?
Freelancemomma · 11/12/2019 11:21

Brilliant thinking and writing. Bravo.

NonnyMouse1337 · 22/11/2019 18:48

Good point about the economic link, Antibles. You're right that it's mostly people who are comparatively well off and who don't have to face the harsh realities of life that are more likely to support trans ideology. They feel that since they themselves don't have an issue and all their pals are lovely people, that should be reason enough to not be bothered about any potential impact on women's rights.
Pretty much all universities are steeped in postmodernism these days, so if you're young and university educated, then you're more likely to think TRA ideology is perfectly reasonable.
If you haven't been indoctrinated with postmodernist influences, then TRA ideology won't make any sense to you.

As for organised religion, it does have a purpose of establishing power and control over the masses, but also many people seem to love the sense of community and direction that organised religions can provide.

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Antibles · 22/11/2019 18:00

I'm not really sure about the economic link. In my personal experience the people I know who are immune to gender ideology are working class and on average poorer.

The people dabbling in woo and spouting 'transwomen are women' that I know are very comfortably off middle class people who clearly have enough social capital to be able to hand other people's (or their own in the case of handmaidens!) rights away without thinking too much about it.

Or comfortably off naive young people (usually female) who don't yet have enough experience of life and male sexuality to realise what they are unwittingly supporting.

I ask myself: how does each movement benefit the male sexual agenda?

Antibles · 22/11/2019 17:41

Great thread OP.

Just a quick thought. There are two things going on. I think of belief and organised religion as two different, albeit related, things.

The need (susceptibility) to believe does seem to be a very human brain-based thing. But organised religion tends to be a very effective way for some humans to exercise power over others which is quite a different thing . The latter certainly has parallels with other ideologies...

NonnyMouse1337 · 22/11/2019 15:36

PencilsInSpace thank you very much for the article you posted on page 1!!

(areomagazine.com/2018/12/18/postmodern-religion-and-the-faith-of-social-justice/)

It was very well written and properly thought out and worth the time spent reading. I'm impressed by how the authors have systematically explained their viewpoint and pleasantly surprised to see so many of my own thoughts articulated in a much better fashion and with a much better understanding of postmodernism!

There are a few minor areas I might disagree with or am still on the fence about, but they have given me a lot to think over and reflect on, including aspects of feminism.

God is dead, but the need for God certainly isn't.

I'll have to look at the Eileen Barker links next, but this article is going to stick in my mind for quite a while. Lots of ideas flying around in my head!

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Goosefoot · 17/11/2019 12:48

But most people don't find it compelling. It's being imposed on us by a small minority with sanctions being applied for non compliance.

There are only a few who know about and find the more obscure details compelling. But many seem to find the public face compelling enough to support it quite wholeheartedly, and they are an influential group, university educated people for the most part, many of them professionals. It somehow hits the right notes to have had people embrace it in the media, advocacy, government.

I understand what people are thinking when they say it reminds them of religion, and I think that there are some interesting points there. Modern secular society is extremely dualistic, and I think that's very interesting since by rights it ought to be materialist. That kind of dualism is a significant factor and it permeates other cultural trajectories as well.

But many of the threads I see are less about religion and have been borrowed directly from other lobby and advocacy groups. Deconstructionism and the sex positive movement are a significant part. There is a lot of the poorer but still popular ideas that came out of the gay rights lobby that have been taken up and run with. Some of the language from disability advocacy. Perhaps weirdly but I think significantly feminism, and even more weirdly the idea that gender is made up. The cosmetic surgery and fashion industry. And there are also elements that remind me a lot of roleplay groups and cosplay and such.

Though, thinking about it, the huge explosion of interest in roleplay and fandoms, and the particular way they are being expressed, has at times made me think that it's morphed into a kind of substitute religion for people. They create these world-building systems, or complicated sets of theories about Marvel universe or GoT or whatever, and become very immersed, it reminds me of a cheap-ass theology, but one that they don't need to really believe in, which requires nothing personally difficult, doesn't need to address hard truths like suffering or climate change or poverty, etc. And it doesn't require any real intellectual effort either because it's clearly just made up, no need to learn about history or philosophy or anything like that.

All the satisfaction of an integrated thought system with none of the work, and a big fat vacuum on moral and ethical directives, insert whatever you like.

NonnyMouse1337 · 17/11/2019 09:27

Hi Lamahaha sorry for the late reply.
Thanks for explaining your perspective and I'm glad you found a framework / school of thought that helped you find meaning and satisfaction in your life.

It's normal for many people to seek spiritual meaning and there are many ways to achieve this. I don't see the problem as long as it doesn't veer into harming others etc.

My frustration comes from the general view among people in the West that Eastern religions or philosophical works are 'better' or more 'profound' than those found in the West.
There's also a pervasive attitude in some of these 'Eastern' areas like South Asia that their culture, religions, values and philosophies are superior to the West and Western influences must be resisted at all cost. While I get the legacy of colonialism can cause an understandable pushback, it frequently is used as an excuse to avoid introspection and criticism of our own failings and adopt a very insular outlook which stifles progress.

I do think it's important to not be Euro-centric and it's vital to look at different belief systems and spiritual and philosophical wisdom from all over the world. However, I don't think 'East' is somehow more mystical and profound. Different schools of thought and beliefs have evolved in various ways through the centuries and millennia, and it's interesting to look at the similarities as well as differences.

Human beings around the world have had an interest in the big questions of our existence, probing consciousness and the sense of self, wondering about our place in this universe, grappling with ethics and morality, and so on. I don't think one kind is better than the other. They are the works of fallible humans and usually of men. Women rarely feature in these frameworks.

I still remember a memory from school and the teacher reading out aloud the story of Siddhartha Gautama and how he was married with a wife and young child. Then he saw some poor person suffering while out and about as a prince and eventually decided to abandon his wife and child to find enlightenment. Buddha was always taught to me as someone profound and deserving of respect, but all I remember from that story is thinking he wasn't a nice man at all if he abandoned his wife and child like that. As a young Indian girl I understood how wives who are abandoned and widows are viewed as a shame and burden to their families and communities. Hopefully she was treated well living in a royal family, but who knows.
Funny how men are always allowed to abandon their responsibilities and duties to run off and discover self-actualisation! Sounds very AGP like. Women throughout history have rarely had the freedom to do the same.

Eastern religions aren't sterile things. They are laced with lots of superstitious and mystical ideas that can hold back the societies in which they thrive. Westerners can cherry pick what they practice, but the 'locals' have to deal with the real life consequences.
For example, reincarnation can seem like a cool idea and living a good life so you keep being reborn until you reach the final state of enlightenment.... However in reality, when people are suffering, especially women, rather than look for practical solutions, it's pretty much the norm to tut tut and say oh you must have done something terrible in your past life to deserve this now. Women who miscarry or have stillbirths are told this. I wish our 'Eastern' societies could 'evolve' beyond such mindsets but it's hard because people still attach so much importance to these sort of beliefs.

I don't know if my post makes sense. I wish there was a way to weed out the rubbish bits but I don't know if anyone is trying to have a balanced conversation around Eastern beliefs instead of putting them on a pedestal.

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OldCrone · 17/11/2019 09:06

I think you can look at gender ideology that way, it grows out of western secular society in some way that makes sense, that's where it has its roots. If it didn't, so many people would not find it so compelling.

But most people don't find it compelling. It's being imposed on us by a small minority with sanctions being applied for non compliance.

I find the move to push this ideology in schools quite sinister. Older people are resisting so they're going for the children.

Arella · 17/11/2019 06:15

Shock I had not thought that about the nationalised broadband - good grief, yes of course. Surely the nationalised provider would be able to identify what people were doing.
I think there are anyway more pressing priorities and I agree with the broader concept that competition incentivises innovation, but I had not thought of the control element. That is quite scary.

Goosefoot · 17/11/2019 03:09

Everyone believes something about how the world works, and every system of thinking that's ever been in existence rests of principles that are in some sense assumed. The vast majority of people simply see the set of assumptions their society accepts as completely natural and obvious, they are so central to how we think and even perceive that many people aren't really even able to see that they are there at all.

That's true even in places where religion in the traditional sense is no longer dominant. The different ideas that develop in our own culture or any other will reflect the principles that culture holds as true, and grow out of them, and other patterns that emerge in that way of thinking may also contribute.

I think you can look at gender ideology that way, it grows out of western secular society in some way that makes sense, that's where it has its roots. If it didn't, so many people would not find it so compelling.

I don't really think of this as religiosity though. To me its just how people think about the world around them.

FloralBunting · 16/11/2019 17:03

Similar history to the OP, and this is a drum I've been banging for some time (but not recently on FWR, because I get pissy about being threatened with passive aggressive censure for mentioning how incredibly similar AWA/TRA behaviour is to the abusive patriarchal cults I've been involved with...)

OhHolyJesus · 16/11/2019 16:50

Coming to this a bit late and I agree with PPs, a fascinating thread and leading on from the references to witches I am always reminded of The Crucible when I think or talk about the hysteria/social contagion effect of ROGD (I've just come from the new support thread).

I think this needs to have a wider audience, your OP is so eloquent and on-point. Have you a way of getting this on medium or another platform?

Scientology, in its cult-like form and being based on science-fiction is another thought...

I'll go back and read the OP again now, it really is brilliant.

Lamahaha · 16/11/2019 16:12

OP I do agree with much of what you say, and I do see genderism as a new cult/religion. However, having had a rather unusual trajectory in my own questioning, I’d like to say a few word on what you describe as “the bizarre devotion for 'eastern philosophies'”.

OK, it’s true you didn’t say that these philosophies are bizarre in and of themselves, but only the devotion to them, and I feel I can explain this.
Obviously, this “bizarre devotion” is part of a need to fill an inner void, a thing I myself felt most intensely in my youth, having been raised atheist by two wonderful parents who were devoted to rationality but offered nothing nourishing to replace the religion they rejected.

So I was raised on humanist theory and radical atheism, which left me with all the right arguments but floundering when it came to my own inner sense of who I was and how to feel whole in myself.
I think that conventional religion does help in delivering a sense of inner peace and stability; this is the inner, “vertical” dimension of religion which is often ignored, as most atheists concentrate on the “horizontal” dimension, ie dogma, rules, ritual, adherence to holy books and buildings. It’s what my parents did, and what I did for a time.

The “vertical” dimension is what I eventually sought, that is, a sense of being whole and healthy within, and efforts in that direction, for example through meditation, actually worked. The philosophical underpinning I found in Eastern “philosophies”, and I became “devoted” to one of them in a manner that might appear “bizarre” to others, but has done its job well, in that it has delivered the inner balance I sought in a perfectly rational and un-cultish manner. No woo about it, and gender “identity” would certainly be in direct opposition to such teachings. (weighing my words carefully here, as one of my posts on the subject (see Yoga thread) got censored and deleted recently; I suppose I went too far.)

What is really bizarre is the way hordes of westerners have tried to usurp the basic, extremely sensible and un-cultish teachings and shoehorned them into their own made-up versions, for example Elizabeth Gilbert’s manifesto in Eat Pray Love.

So I think that the original searching and seeking for an alternative to traditional religion is understandable; just that the ego tends to want its own way and if we are not entirely vigilant and truthful and self-critical, we end up with a cult.

And this is where we find ourselves. This new belied in gender identity is the new religion, and we are the new atheists. Or something like that.

Siameasy · 16/11/2019 14:05

Excellent post. And agree about the Gov broadband internet - would it be like China? Since they pay for it they can control it? Deny you access for wrong think?

Whatsnewpussyhat · 16/11/2019 13:56

The other is recruitment - you need see what you believe is reflected back to you from other people and that some want to join

The 2019 version means blocking all those who disagree with your views on Twitter

CeridwenTheWitch · 16/11/2019 13:40
  • There's also the witch hunting that goes on - hounded out of jobs if it's discovered you are GC.
  • Men are the figure heads as with all religions. Women are nuns or they are 'bad' (terfs)
Uncompromisingwoman · 16/11/2019 13:35

Fascinating thread.
Not trying to derail but I looked at the Labour Party's proposals for a government funded broadband and my first reaction was that this would be their perfect way for them to identify and silence GC woman and thought. The perfect tool for a cult to use.

CeridwenTheWitch · 16/11/2019 13:29

I really enjoyed reading your post Nonny, it's brilliant. I wonder if you could write this up as an article or research paper and get it published? I totally agree with you, it's like a new religion or cult:

  • Chanting
  • Apostates (terfs and detransitioners)
  • No debate
  • Emotional blackmail and shame used as tools to achieve objectives
  • Total intolerance to other views, no platforming
  • Seeing their view as 'The Truth'
  • Recruiting children and young people
  • Getting laws passed to protect them and punish non believers
  • Science denial
  • Ignoring safeguarding
  • Some powerful figures becoming almost priestlike
  • Offered roles due to their association and contacts with the religion rather than based on merit