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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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ROGD Parent Support

361 replies

iamright17 · 16/11/2019 00:34

This is a new thread for parents who are experiencing the phenomenon of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria in their tweens/ teens/ young adults.

Sadly we are being watched and our words taken out of context so please be careful what you say.

I want the UK and beyond to listen to parents. Even if it is deemed as anecdotal for now, it is important for someone to acknowledge our perspective. The trans narrative is trying to undermine our credibility.

OP posts:
NeurotrashWarrior · 29/12/2019 10:10

Thank you for this thread; this is a very important collection of experiences which need to be given a voice.

PolyplaxSerrata · 29/12/2019 09:38

Can anyone give me some ideas about how we might find someone neutral/ ROGD sceptical for DD to talk to about her feelings? Some of you seem to have found suitable therapists , so they must be out there!
We are in NW London but would obviously travel.

JanesKettle · 29/12/2019 05:16

In terms of what we as parents can do to offset these techniques is, first and foremost, love unconditionally. Always an open door and listening ear. Be your child's strongest advocate.
But as has already been mentioned, don't fall for the drama. Part of the conditioning is the belief that their group is under very special persecution, and there is a constant adversarial undercurrent.
So, state your rules, but don't get drawn into slanging matches where you tell them they are brainwashed and their favourite instagrammer is a deluded liar, however much you may know it to be true. The more you reinforce that persecution narrative, the stronger it becomes inside them

Great advice, Floral

JanesKettle · 29/12/2019 05:14

can you say what meds these mat be and what "psychological skills training", please

Standard meds for anxiety, depression.

Distress tolerance, mindfulness, interpersonal effectiveness, emotional regulation (all modules in DBT therapy - dd found distress tolerance and emotional regulation most useful, followed by interpersonal effectiveness)

iamright17 · 29/12/2019 00:36

My intention on starting this thread was for 2 reasons
The first was for support and to let other parents have an alternative to affirmation and to be able to say no I don’t agree with the narrative.
The second reason was that there was no open forum for us. I have been on closed support groups which have been my lifeline but because they are closed the public would not see the devastation and therefore were not aware.
I hope by making this more public people will see what is actually happening. Sunlight.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 28/12/2019 23:06

I'm really pleased to see this support thread is already helping women. Here's to it being as sucessful as the trans widows thread

This. And excellent advice offered, Floral.

Italiangreyhound · 28/12/2019 22:58

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent I have pmed you re your comment "Once dd’s OCD was treated, her life changed."

I just wanted to ask anyone about OCD, please. I have OCD, very mild now but as a teen it was a bit of a problem. I sometimes wonder if my dd (15) has it too.

Does any one have experience of OCD in children? Of OCD being diagnosed and treated as a child etc?

My dd is under CAMHS but they have not been much help so far.

Any advice, pm or otherwise, would be so helpful, please, anyone. Flowers

TinselAngel · 28/12/2019 22:53

I'm really pleased to see this support thread is already helping women. Here's to it being as sucessful as the trans widows thread Wine

FloralFestiveBunting · 28/12/2019 22:19

Janes in my view this is an area worthy of proper investigation re: cult techniques. Most of the current work looks at very personality driven groups, but I think the internet has created a new dynamic that definitely needs exploring and studying.

There are generally two types of cult - religious or therapeutic. I suspect this movement has stronger overtones of the therapeutic, especially given the heavy doses of psychobabble introspection often displayed by youtube personalities - it's my contention that various Youtubers, with the false intimacy and sense of community created by linked social media, function in a very similar way to more well understood Leaders in various sects.

No one joins a cult. They explore an interesting therapy or philosophy, one that seems to answer all their anxious questions, and it's not until they have been subject to intensive grooming that they may ever get a hint of what they gave got into, though those around them will often see it and feel helpless to stop it.

A lot of people have heard of love bombing - this is the kind of thing that young people will be coming across on various social media, and combined with parental alienation, it fosters a huge sense of identifying with the group.

The parental alienation will be accompanied by a nurtured paranoia and feeling of persecution. Again, every youthful insecurity amplified.

In terms of what we as parents can do to offset these techniques is, first and foremost, love unconditionally. Always an open door and listening ear. Be your child's strongest advocate.
But as has already been mentioned, don't fall for the drama. Part of the conditioning is the belief that their group is under very special persecution, and there is a constant adversarial undercurrent.
So, state your rules, but don't get drawn into slanging matches where you tell them they are brainwashed and their favourite instagrammer is a deluded liar, however much you may know it to be true. The more you reinforce that persecution narrative, the stronger it becomes inside them.
In fact, if at all possible, don't let your child lead you into long discussions about Trans at all - we've talked before on FWR about the language used to mark out who is in, and who is out, and a lot of the teachings of the Trans movement are not meant to clarify, but to confuse. You are much better off drawing you child's attention to the huge wide sphere of real life that will, hopefully, eventually make the obsessive internet-driven world of mastectomy scars, cutesy terms for experimental medical interventions and endless eggshell treading to make sure the most current terms are used for fear of cancellation, look like the pointless, empty shadow boxing it really is.

I hope some of this is helpful. It's the kind of thing I'd really like to write a book about, but I am pretty damned sure wouldn't get published atm.

Italiangreyhound · 28/12/2019 21:51

@JanesKettle "Treatment tends to be a combination of talk therapy (exploration of feelings) + meds for co-morbid conditions + psychological skills training."

Hi, can you say what meds these mat be and what "psychological skills training", please?

My child is on Fluroxitine for depression and anxiety

JanesKettle · 28/12/2019 21:19

Floral

I reckon it is a cult-like phenomenon.
For that reason, I am pretty restrained in what I say/said to my kids about the people in their (IRL/online) lives pushing this stuff.

I'd be interested in info from this perspective.

JanesKettle · 28/12/2019 21:13

I would just grey it all down

Absolutely.

Things I did not allow and did not engage in a discussion of after the first discussion, explaining my position, answering questions, and acknowledging that my position made child/ren angry:

Binders.
Name change within the home.
Change of pronouns within the home.
Blockers/opposite sex hormones.
Discussion of surgical options. Completely off the table as a minor.
Gender clinics

What I did/do allow:
gender experiementation - wearing clothes usually associated with the other gender, make-up/no make-up, short hair/long hair - any form of gender play. Came with a huge serve of 'look at all this arty men/butch women through history who have fucked with gender while remaining grounded in the reality of their sexed bodies'

Some gender neutral language. For example, introducing dd as 'my eldest' instead of 'my daughter'. Talking about 'your sib' instead of 'your brother'. Shortening names to less feminine form (for dd). Using pet names instead of given name all the time (ds).

Privacy in therapy (with someone I felt could be trusted not to rush things).

Access to internet (maybe with a very young teen, cutting off internet would help; I judged it would make our situation worse, turn me into the 'enemy'. I know where ds is getting his info from, and I know (and have communicated) the limits to that info. I would prefer to cut him off, but made a judgement call on that. I might regret it).

~

I have had some extremely open discussions with ds about the reality of transition, including the possibility of continuing mental health issues, sterility, sexual dysfunction, ill health, a vastly reduced dating pool. He found those discussions very distressing at the time, but wanted to have them. That was a while ago.

God it's tough. Hugs to all.

3dogs2cats · 28/12/2019 18:08

Hi.im no expert but we do have a 16 year old who’s desisted, despite lots of affirmation of the previous position from other family members.
I think it’s very important to not allow euphemisms. Top surgery is double mastectomy, look at some pictures. Do ask if turning her vulva inside out will make her into a real boy. If faced with this again, I would limit access to reddit discord, tumblr etc, and time in their room. And I would absolutely not allow your 16 year old to insult you, or tell you how to parent. Mostly I got quite bored with it. It’s a ludicrous position and they know it, that’s why they go on the attack all the time. They will keep wanting to unmask your transphobia, but don’t engage with that,this is about them , not you, they need to be clear about what is possible and what is not. I would not allow any change of name. Bu5 I would. Also be very wary of giving them loads of attention for it. It’s quite thrilling to have everyone looking at you. I would just grey it all down. And don’t be afraid to say no, they are kids after all.Transgender trend is a fantastic resource, as is This. Don’t let them access your phone , tablet etc, you will be attacked for having Mumsnet.

FloralFestiveBunting · 28/12/2019 16:57

Wrt binders, we had the same standpoint - no permanent body mods until age of majority to decide and fund that themselves. It was helpful to have a firm line.

Binterested · 28/12/2019 16:27

oldcrone I think you and I may have stumbled across the same point - trans identity reflected back from others at school or from siblings.

Binterested · 28/12/2019 16:25

Poly I have no real life experience but the sibling thing would alarm me. It’s not right for such young and inexperienced people to be encouraging others down a path they do not understand beyond the level of Twitter and which they themselves are not on. It’s ripe for alienation within the family to have a cheerleader internally mindlessly shouting slogans at you. There’s rebelling against parental norms which is right and proper to a degree and then there’s using someone vulnerable in the family to make these points against parents.

I dont want to make things worse for you but it seems to me your older children are promoting discord and dissatisfaction here. How you get them back on side I don’t know other than by saying that it’s your job as a parent to keep options open for as long as possible and that is not up for discussion.

It’s also your job as a parent to make sure your children don’t try to supplant you as the parental authority. I have seen this in a family I know well - controlling older child increasingly using younger children as their troops in a battle of wills against parents. Younger children made to feel important as they are for once in the sunshine glow of attention from beloved older sibling. Parents struggle to keep older sibling in their lane as a child like any other rather than another adult and quasi parent as they think they are.

OldCrone · 28/12/2019 16:16

At the moment she doesn’t take off her hoodie at school because it helps hide them. At home she is fine going about in a T-shirt with bra on.

I've been struck recently by how much of trans identification is about how other people perceive the trans person, and how little is about their own internal identity.

BessyK · 28/12/2019 16:07

Here's some videos with Benjamin A Boyce and Sasha Ayad teen therapist that could be helpful.

Sasha Ayad –Identity, gender, adolescence and therapy:

Sasha Ayad - Identity and teen development:

Sasha Ayad - Parenting the Gender dysphoric child:

OhHolyJesus · 28/12/2019 14:41

For sports bras Poly I can recommend H&M as a hopefully suitable, affordable 'flattening' type. They have some that are not obviously women's bras that look more athletic.

I haven't been through this like others have here so I can't offer any useful advice, I just hope you manage to find strength for yourself and your family, to negotiate this. It's a sign of the times with this ideology that going to the doctor or for therapy isn't necessarily the best course of action if all they will do is affirm, as others have noted, and create more distance between you.

The name isn't too much of a change at least and if you can manage to get her back into school without them treating her any differently (as it's a girls school are there even boys toilets?) you can begin to find a way forward. It must be heartbreaking for you, I'm not surprised you are crying a lot.

Angryresister · 28/12/2019 13:51

So sad to hear all these stories so just sending support to all the parents and your children while you wait and hope time will change their direction. I do think it’s outrageous that youth workers are able to influence in this way. It seems that “being trans “ is the only way young people can get recognition from others in support services. What about the necessary but ordinary mental health services looking at causes and other factors? Interesting about the post adoption links, when there is also a kind of legal fiction created... would be worth some proper research being done. Just hoping for good outcomes for everyone here eventually. Flowers

DuMondeB · 28/12/2019 13:43

Blackberry

I lost my mum to ovarian cancer 15 years ago when I was in my 20s. I absolutely feel your heartbreak at your daughter’s change of name. If only some of these teachers and youth leaders could think of the bigger picture. Your daughter could’ve moved her late grandma’s name to a middle name (in the US, for example, it’s acceptable for men to have a woman’s middle name, as a family tradition).

PolyplaxSerrata · 28/12/2019 13:40

I freely admit we have been a bit free and easy with the internet access but I'm hoping she will share links and you tubers she is getting her information from so I can have a go at understanding what is going on inside her head.
She's very internet savvy and has managed to dodge parental controls we've set up but DH has done something with the router that restricts her wifi. She's had to come down from her room and negotiate for that to be reinstated. I've also pruned back her data allowance so the only unlimited access she has is the family computer in the living room.

PolyplaxSerrata · 28/12/2019 13:35

@BlackberryViolet How sad, I'm sorry.
DD3 has kind or shortened her given name to something we call her anyhow, so that's not too bad.
Am kind of 'forgetting' to call her 'he' so am getting corrected by 2/3 of the other kids. Not sure we can afford R & P!
Any other suggestions for very supportive sports bras? She's a 34B so doesn't have too much to squash.

DuMondeB · 28/12/2019 13:31

Our line is ‘nothing that causes, or has the potential to cause irreversible changes before the age of 18. Everything else to be negotiated on a case-by-case basis’.

Binders clearly have the potential to cause irreversible change (I have the graphic pictures saved that prove it) so are off the table.

Of course, there is always the danger that she might obtain one via other sources, so obviously we have to keep a close eye on her internet activity, friendships, post, laundry and room (although that kind of supervision is normal for all our children anyway. My eldest was wild aged 14/15 but is now 19 and more responsible).

BlackberryViolet · 28/12/2019 13:26

One of the hardest things for me so far was the change of name. Dd was named after my mum. She died when I was a teen, we had a great relationship and using her name for dd was originally DHs idea. We spent ages discussing names as a lot of couples do.

DD changed it by deed poll in collusion with workers at her youth group just after her 16th birthday. We didn’t know anything about it until it was final. They advised her and acted as witnesses. Not once did any of them think to mention this to us - either dd or the youth workers. I went to pick her up one night and they hurriedly pushed some paperwork out of sight and asked me to wait outside. It was her change of name deed. That really hurt. I was surprised how upset I was by it but it’s linked to identity. I have always identified as a mother of daughters and her name was part of that identity.

You tube videos later - thank you!