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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shall we start a feminist think tank?

212 replies

Newuser123123 · 15/11/2019 11:58

There's lots of clever, knowledgeable women on here. Perhaps we could have a space for gathering research, ideas and policy proposals?

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ChattyLion · 16/11/2019 21:54

Sorry not RTFT can we start to use the thread to decide what questions we want the think tank to tackle? For example:

Short of legal cases to point to, how do we best explain to UK institutions and organisations etc how to use the exemptions that there already are in the GRA around single-sex spaces and services?

What should replace the gender recognition act that would not disadvantage women and respects everyone’s human rights?

What change is needed to agree a definition of biological sex, (..ain’t nobody got time to try to define ‘gender’..) and to make it absolutely unacceptable for any public or private body to use ‘gender’ when they mean ‘sex’?

What regulation should there be for offering kids blockers, hormones, surgery if they are under the age of 25? My suggestion was case by case regulation on licence from a specifically expert body- but I notice the court cases currently being brought suggest only a judge should decide. Women need to be proposing an alternative model, what should it be? Same for any vulnerable adults who are over the age of 25. What would work and have safeguards?

How do we make political parties actually make good on the promises they have made about female representation in party politics?

How do we best embarrass the actual institutions that should already be doing this work? How do we make them listen to women?

I have more! Smile

MuthaFunka61 · 16/11/2019 21:31

@artisanparsnips.

The Morning Star has GC investigative journalists and published this article

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/labour-activists-launch-declaration-women%E2%80%99s-sex-based-rights#.XcnfR1NKoaA.twitter

I also happen to know a journalist who works for the Morning Star.

artisanparsnips · 16/11/2019 18:43

Oh, but what I also meant to say is that I also contacted one of the quangos which advise on play. They had done nothing on gender, but straight away got the problem, and are debating it at their next meeting.

So much of it is about lobbying in that kind of way - not just making a noise, but co-opting other bodies and changing their minds.

the other thing I would like to investigate is how Stonewall got so much sodding influence. Is there a gender-critical investigative journalist out there?

artisanparsnips · 16/11/2019 18:41

I completely hear what you say about duplicating, but there is so much work to be done which isn't happening that I hardly know where to begin.

I started the thread about play equipment for teenagers the other day. While I can do some useful stuff in my own town (aka driving the council clerk mad because I am right and he is wrong), a think tank can do way more. For example - get legal advice as to why only providing stuff for boys is against the equalities act and then spread that knowledge both through formal bodies like whoever they are who represent local councils, but also the press.

There is a lot to be said for taking on an issue and pushing it, because every single thing raises consciousness of just how sexist (mysogynist) the world still is.

ApplejackCriesOnTheInside · 16/11/2019 17:35

I'm in. Politically homeless and in despair.

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ChampagneCommunist · 16/11/2019 17:22

@Newuser123123 No, I haven't- do you have a quick link?

Newuser123123 · 16/11/2019 17:10

@ChampagneCommunist great, we obviously want to make sure we don't say or do anything inadvertently that could get us into trouble. Did you see the faircop article about the college of policing?

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Rumplestaleskin · 16/11/2019 16:39

I am in too. ;

ChampagneCommunist · 16/11/2019 16:37

@Newuser123123 Yes, lawyer here

Newuser123123 · 16/11/2019 15:53

@stumbledin excellent post, thank you.

I think you're right, we don't have time to reinvent the wheel and there's no point duplicating work of other groups.

I definitely think this is an important, active and knowledgeable group of women, with an appetite to do more, whether that is providing research, support etc for other groups, or as a pressure group on its own.

I can't claim to have thought this through and formed a concrete plan, but I'm learning from everyone's posts and excited by the prospect of working together

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Justabaker · 16/11/2019 15:24

I'm in. Retired accountant.

stumbledin · 16/11/2019 15:18

Have to say I have thought for years there should be a woman focused think tank. But the big problem is that it doesn't matter how good the work of the think tank is, if the media wont report you, you aren't going to get far.

I am never quite sure how it is that some so called experts, eg Clare Fox who went from tory, to marxist and now Brexit Party was always asked onto tv to provide comments. As it just seemed to be her and her partner who set up the Institute of Ideas.

And in terms of existing feminist think tanks there are many more than those listed so far as mumsnet is a fairly single focus political issue.

Women's Budget Group, Fawcett Society, Women's Resource Centre, Women's Aid and Rape Crisis are not just services but think tanks. There have been attempts to bring different feminist groups together EVAW for example.

And there was that fairly recent attempt to set up the women expert groups so that commentators weren't always men.

And also know that when it suits them the media will pick up mumsnet ideas, eg changing rooms, lib dems rejecting GC Women.

On of the things that happens to feminism isn't just as the post up thread suggest that feminism (women's liberation) went out of fashion but each generation doesn't want to carry on the work of other women. The want to be the owners, the originators. eg 3rd wave feminism which the media hyped way beyond its actual reach allowed a few groups to establish themselves as representative, eg UK Feminista which some here may never have heard of but because it got media interest at the time is still used for commentating etc..

FiLia is another example of basically reiventing the wheel.

So I am all for a think tank, but if it is just replicating what other women's networks are doing, why? Do you think it will have a USP that somehow the media and politicians will more positively respond to than other feminist groupings?

But if it is to be a gender critical one can you think that the range of sex based rights women's groups would actually agree to work together.

I am not wanting to be negative but dont think we have time to re-invent the wheel.

Maybe it would be better to see where the gaps are and then see if a new group could fill it.

Or maybe what a priority is, is to make sure that the media and politicians dont ignore the work and opinions and research of existing groups and work as lobbyists to ensure that these power makes dont just put anything labeled feminist into the pending tray.

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 16/11/2019 14:49

Women make up more than half the voting public. We've been protesting about the unfairness of our lack of representation in the upper echelons of decision making for 60 years. Yet we are still being dismissed and ignored.

There was a period when some laws changed and we began to see progress. Those of us who were young in the 1970s thought it inevitable that a gradual rebalancing was taking place, as the old guard retired more women would become politicians, high court judges, law lords and take their seats on the boards of governing bodies, until a natural ratio of 51% women and 49% men shared power at the top, and the female perspective would be given equal importance whenever decisions were made.

Then came the backlash. Feminism was frumpy and old fashioned. Trendy young women aspired to become glamour models, and Women’s Studies departments were taken over by Gender studies and Queer theory. Prostitution was empowering, so disapproving of legalising brothels and pimps meant you hated prostitutes. Disapproving of porn meant you were were a sex hating prude. Black was white, the struggle for sex equality had been won, and women were now going too far with their ridiculous attempts to control the world.

Caroline Criado Perez book Invisible Women: Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men lays out very clearly that despite 60 years of women demanding a voice, the people in charge of planning and rule making are still blithely ignoring us. And there are no structures in place to punish them for disregarding the interests of 51% of the population, because women don’t get to decide the laws. There aren’t even effective structures in place to protect us from stalking, domestic violence and sexual assault/murder in the guise of rough sex gone wrong, despite all the knowledge we have accrued around those issues, because our perspective is dismissed as irrelevant when guidelines are decided.

It’s very interesting to find out that it is still the case that when girls and women speak more than 30% of the time in a mixed group they are seen as being pushy and dominating the conversation. This was known in the early 80’s, and we were supposed to be working in schools, businesses and all through society to change attitudes. So how come it is still exactly the same nearly 40 years later?

Political parties put systems in place to combat the skewed tendency of male power structures to pick males for promotion, in an effort to increase the number of women MPs. Then they relax and congratulate themselves, and feel quite content once 30% of their number are women. Preferably inexperienced young women, who won’t cause as much trouble as older harridans, and who can be sidelined if they become a nuisance.

We are still far from the 51/49% ratio of proportional representation and now, without consulting us, women’s shortlists, awards, and programmes aimed at boosting women’s skills have been thrown open to people of the male sex. Transwomen, who have benefited from being raised male in a male dominated society. Their voices have been heard, their egos have been massaged, some of them may have even been raised praising god every morning for HIS goodness in having not caused them to be born female. Why does their demand to be treated as female outweigh the never-yet-realised rights of the female sex to be fairly represented at the higher levels of existing power structures? Why are women who try to draw attention to this fact castigated as being so vile and full of hatred that they must be shunned, sacked, cancelled, bludgeoned with a barbed wire wrapped baseball bat, kerbstomped and burnt to death in a grease fire?

Sometimes a truly ambitious women will dry up her milk of human kindness and fight her way to the top by blending in perfectly with the power hungry men. Despising the weaker females whose health fails or who drop out of the race to raise children and take on the care of disabled dependents. Those power hungry women have no more empathy than the males they emulate and manipulate to gain power, so they don’t do the rest of us any good. They are used to show the rest of us that the path to power is open if only women were good enough to tread it successfully.

So long as males dominate all the decision making they can dismiss our concerns. I’d like our think tank to do a lot of hard thinking about how we can change this situation. What can we do that we haven’t already tried in the past 60 years?

WickedGoodDoge · 16/11/2019 13:37

I’m in. I have background in PR and project management. I stopped working a while back so one thing I do have is plenty time. Grin

Newuser123123 · 16/11/2019 13:16

Excellent points about not being a single issue group. Socially responsible policies and women's rights seem a reasonable remit?

It may be the best use of our time is as a research group for the already established groups, I just think the 'politically homeless' feeling has come up a lot recently.

As ever, impressed but not surprised at the intelligent, measured input from people on here

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ElfrideSwancourt · 16/11/2019 13:07

I'd love to be involved. I work in education with children in care so safeguarding is a huge area for me.

I do have a lot of free time and am excellent at proofreading and editing.

PerkingFaintly · 16/11/2019 13:07

I agree, Bertrand.

I'd particularly like to ditch the sound-bite "we can't work on women's issues if we don't know what a woman is."

I mean, as someone who loves empirical methods, the removal of the ability to meaningfully count people/groups cuts me to the quick. I'll cheer when sanity is restored.

But as a mantra I see the above being very effective in completely preventing work on other issues pretty much indefinitely.

It's been pointed out before that people don't need a definition of a woman when they're oppressing us (porn, rape, removal of maternity protections, etc). They're not going to sit around waiting for us to tick off "defining a woman".

We can't afford NOT to multi-task.

GetbusywiththeFizzee · 16/11/2019 12:55

Re research, I work part time and happy to help GC academics with the boring nitty gritty part of research ( that the trans lobby have funded ). Part of the work could be providing academics with a network willing to help out with research- questionnaires, focus groups etc.

BertrandRussell · 16/11/2019 12:41

I’m in too. My only concern is the dominance of the trans debate. I know it’s incredibly important, but I worry that it’s making us take our eyes off the ball in other areas. We have to multi task!

NeurotrashWarrior · 16/11/2019 12:35

there are a lot of things going on behind scenes in many of the orgs already mentioned, including lobbying etc. What's possibly lacking is research, though many academics associated with the orgs are doing this themselves.

It would be important to establish what a think tank would be aiming to do that supports all these organisations and potentially taps into what's already happening.

The Maya Forstater case will be pivotal. So much of what is being done is having to be kept out of public eyes due to people potentially loosing their jobs or simply being silenced at work. I think a think tank named in her honour would be brilliant!

ChattyLion · 16/11/2019 12:10

I’m in

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 16/11/2019 12:00

We need to make sure our research is impeccable and our messages are calm and rational.
We want to make sure we cannot be dismissed as hysterical, bigoted etc.
We need to persuade people to listen to us, and agree with us without fear of losing their jobs.

Wholeheartedly agree, we are the rational grown ups persuading people to look and listen and get on board with us.

Newuser123123 · 16/11/2019 11:53

Fantastic mix of skills, and anyone saying they don't have skills, that's not true, your experience is invaluable.

Anyone a legal bod?

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MuthaFunka61 · 16/11/2019 11:50

I'm in.

Another qualified and experienced counsellor (@Skade,hi)
and have worked with young people and safeguarding along with relationships and was a local Equalities Officer for a grass roots org.

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