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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shall we start a feminist think tank?

212 replies

Newuser123123 · 15/11/2019 11:58

There's lots of clever, knowledgeable women on here. Perhaps we could have a space for gathering research, ideas and policy proposals?

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HorseWithNoFucksToGive · 24/11/2019 10:46

Excellent posts.

xxyzz · 24/11/2019 09:53

Tl;dr - we need to be on the attack against misogyny, not on the defence against accusations of transphobia - as time spent on the latter takes away from the key issue.

We need to stop letting ourselves be derailed and the debate being framed in their terms

xxyzz · 24/11/2019 09:45

I also like the idea of relabelling as Real Feminism or Realists (or maybe Biological Feminists ???) because the problems of labelling the movement as Gender Critical Feminism are:

A) that to most of the millions of average people we want to reach outside this debate, gender just = a polite word for sex, so they have literally no idea what "gender critical" would mean - also, it has the word "critical" in it, so it just makes us sound inherently negative and mean - saying someone is "critical" is not a positive word in real life. Unfortunately, the commonly-used alternative, Radical Feminists, is just as bad, as "radical" suggests a bunch of extremist loons.

B) By calling the movement Gender Critical we effectively centre gender in our very founding statement. You don't draw attention AWAY from gender and TOWARDS sex as the main cause of women's oppression by centring something you don't believe in in your movement's name.

Fundamentally, I think we are behind the curve in terms of public framing of the debate - TRAs have had a decade to plan this and implement it discreetly before most of us noticed, and have very successfully managed to frame the debate as T as a part of the LBGT+ and thereby paint any women (or men) who object as anti-LGBT, or "transphobic".

The most effective way to campaign IMHO is not to continue to fight on their turf (no pun intended) but to reframe the debate in terms of misogyny and safeguarding, which together with homophobia are what I see as the key issues we are fighting against.

Silencing of free speech on this ie No Debate is one of the main mechanisms the TRAs have used, together with regulatory capture; longer term, the bit I find most insidious and frightening is the attempt to play the long game by altering education ie ensuring that the next generation of voters are literally unable to understand the distinction between sex and gender or the meaning of misogyny based on biological sex, as they have been brainwashed from primary school onwards. So I think fighting back against that is crucial in winning the long term war as well as the short term battles. As Mums we are particularly well-suited to battling against that and a group centred around a parenting website would carry both a moral clout and a meaningful voice in an area where our views matter, in a way we might not have in other areas of the debate. So I think that's one area we should focus on.

Fundamentally, though, I think we need to be campaigning on misogyny and the massive attack on women's rights - and we need to be doing it with very simple, pithy and completely clear statements.

The whole campaign around eg Woman is an Adult Human Female is utterly mystifying to anyone not already familiar with the debate - if you're not aware of how far the world has fallen down the rabbit hole, then it just seems blatantly obvious and a frankly insane thing to be debating. I get that in legal terms it is of course key, and defining what is meant by a woman is of course vital in winning legal cases. But in terms of winning over the majority of the public and awakening people to the dangers for women and girls at this critical juncture, we need to be pointing out very clearly and as simply as possible how women's rights are being rolled back drastically. Because to those who don't follow the debate, they have absolutely no idea that that is what is happening. They assume that the slow but gradual progress in women's rights since the 60s is continuing.

We need to get the message out and fast - possibly in a (more effective) Led By Donkeys type campaign - simple messages, widely disseminated.

Newuser123123 · 23/11/2019 09:19

Have just started a new thread for anyone ready to get cracking!

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XXMansplainShieldActive · 22/11/2019 22:58

It moves the spotlight back to women too which is where feminism should be.

ChattyLion · 22/11/2019 22:50

I like that idea of ‘realism’ or feminism being ‘reality-based’ or ‘reality-centred’.

It puts genderism into its rightful context of being a chosen belief system involving magical thinking. Which just like any other belief system or religion, nobody else should be compelled to follow, if they live in a free country.

jamrollyolly · 22/11/2019 18:36

I thought, after the positive court cases so far this week, I'd bump this thread for a positive weekend vibe...

Daughterofmabel · 20/11/2019 15:27

I would really like a place online where we can store and share information, knowledge and contacts

same.
including sex as a protected category for hate incidents and hate crimes
me too but there has already been a consulation on this last year I think. Scotland though ?

Inebriati · 20/11/2019 15:15

I would really like a place online where we can store and share information, knowledge and contacts.

Newuser123123 · 20/11/2019 12:45

Good idea. I think I will start new thread(s) so we can work out a more detailed plan

Thanks

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NonnyMouse1337 · 20/11/2019 12:08

I haven't read through all the posts in this thread, so I apologise if I am repeating what has already been mentioned by someone else or if a think-tank 'plan' is already under way...

Based on issues highlighted in the thread about the judicial review for Harry the Owl, and this might be wishful thinking, but it would be nice to look into the possibility of including sex as a protected category for hate incidents and hate crimes so that women are also able to avail some sort of protection and recourse to justice. I think this is currently not included?

Newuser123123 · 19/11/2019 09:04

@bertrand I'm sorry in that case, just thought it would be a good starting point. If you'd like to suggest/ start working on other ideas I'd be open to that. I'm not an expert at all, so I'll be guided by others. Just want to make the initial tasks manageable. This idea is so fluid at the moment, there are no set parameters so please don't feel depressed!

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BertrandRussell · 19/11/2019 08:45

OK.

I find that deeply depressing.

Newuser123123 · 19/11/2019 08:29

@bertrand
I'm open to ideas but I think initially these are subjects that are in need of extra attention and resources. If the formula works well we can roll it out to other areas.
I think keep the remit small and focused to begin with

Thanks

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BertrandRussell · 19/11/2019 08:07

So is the idea to focus only on gender related issues?

MsMartini · 19/11/2019 08:07

This is really interesting.

I think the confusion between sex and gender and the way some people and organisations use gender when they mean sex (perhaps without realising the implications) really hinders debate.

Alan Henness on Twitter regularly tweets like thisthreadreaderapp.com/thread/1195152575852662785.html pointing out factual inaccuracies in eg job ads, policies.

If we came up with a similar standard format for more casual uses, perhaps we could all send emails, tweets, whatever when we spot gender when sex is meant? It would only take a few minutes but if a lot of us did it, it could add up?

Newuser123123 · 19/11/2019 07:54

If we call these issues 1,2 and 3
1, Single sex spaces
2, Medical treatment for children with GD
3, Women's sports

If someone more knowledgeable than me can break these down into (numbered) subsections, then people can pick one to gather research on? Makes it more manageable?

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Newuser123123 · 19/11/2019 07:51

@GetbusywiththeFizzee thank you, there is no rush, I'd rather do this thoroughly and comprehensively

@wickedgood that's a really good idea, evidencing where even discussing the issues has caused controversy/ been shut down.

If people can start by using their own spreadsheets then we can merge them at a later date when we have a secure way to work

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WickedGoodDoge · 19/11/2019 07:50

Oh, and it would be good if we could map out the big picture of where all the influence is coming from - I.e. Stonewall is funded by the Govt and now they have influence in X ways on the police, schools, NHS etc.

WickedGoodDoge · 19/11/2019 07:17

As part of the library, I think it would be useful to maintain a list of current events, examples of the impact. At the moment, it’s all scattered about- every day I read about another example of free speech being shut down, or someone’s job coming under threat etc, but they don’t seem to be held in any central place so it’s all very anecdotal or grasping at vaguely remembering some article somewhere. Possible lists with links:

  1. GC talks being threatened to be shut down
  2. Changes to police policy (e.g. reports of crimes reported by gender, that thread about searches by gender)
  3. GC people shut down on Twitter/FB
  4. Schools teaching gender identity
  5. Quick links to Stonewall, Mermaids etc and then quick links to 4th Wave, Transgender Trend etc,
  6. Lists of GC journalists, doctors questioning positive affirmation (like Susan Bewley) etc

And so on...

If we could have a giant library that other groups could access and we could be a source for media requests, it might be helpful. I’m going to start tracking a lot of these myself, but it would be good to have a central location to hold them.

HumberHellraiser · 18/11/2019 23:13

Great to hear you’ve got some positive initial responses from those groups newuser

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 18/11/2019 22:23

Thank you for kicking this off. Newuser Please let us know what help you need.

Antibles · 18/11/2019 22:15

Repeal the GRA

Educating organisations that the EA exemption allows single sex spaces.

Women's prisons

No Y chromosomes in women's sport.

A critical analysis of the concept of 'trans' and how it is actually AGP or gender dysphoria.

The 'transing' of children.

Campaign to get 'gender' on forms replaced with 'sex' again.

GetbusywiththeFizzee · 18/11/2019 21:45

I think a good starting point is to gather existing reviews of the evidence base eg transgender trend etc then to look at the studies that have guided policy makers and finally a resource of all studies. Huge piece of work - will dm you once I have preliminary info , but bear with me will be a while.

Newuser123123 · 18/11/2019 20:18

I think creating a library of existing research, (making sure it is all reputable) then analysing that research would be an excellent idea, would appreciate your ideas for structure / approach etc

Obviously people more knowledgeable than me will know what to include about making sure we're not one sided and listen to the genuine concerns of people with GD

We want to be able to present policy makers with well thought-out solutions that will be palatable to all, I think we've got our work cut out!

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