Anyone want to talk about men, women, and sex?

Justhadathought
But that usually seems to mean concluding that anything outside the judger's idea of acceptable must be negative.

I'm guessing that doesn't mean sitting around wondering where someone's preference for massage and long sessions Vs a quickie comes from, and is more about deciding that X Y Z positions are from stable backgrounds but A B C positions must be a sign something has gone wrong for them or they're replying negative experiences etc.

If someone enjoys something and makes a fully informed decision to consent to it, I would feel quite uncomfortable telling them they can't like it / they may think they like it but actually...

This thread reminded me of this FWR thread from earlier this year about the terrible consequences for young people from the normalising of porn:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3538883-DM-The-true-toll-of-porn-Girls-who-hate-their-bodies-and-young-men-who-cant-perform-in-relationships-by-a-GP-whos-seen-the-harm-it-does-to-teens

@Justhadathought I have a very lovely boyfriend who has almost identical needs in a relationship.

Being kind, monogamous, wanting legal commitment etc aren’t exactly unsual in a relationship. How many people do you know who want someone in debt, non-monogamous, opposite ideas about sex and who is unkind?!

But equally, I think it's a bit much for other women to decide that they're the sex police informing other people what they do/don't like. It seems a little weird to me

I don't think anyone is really disputing that some people 'like' certain things...but are taking the discussion further, in analysing where 'likes' and desires arise from in the first instance. What shapes 'likes' and 'desire'. They are not immovable and unchangeable facts, but shifting conditions based on variable factors.

It's like asking someone, " Are you happy" ? What does that even mean?

No woman should be pushed or coerced or feel the need to pretend she likes something she doesn't.

But equally, I think it's a bit much for other women to decide that they're the sex police informing other people what they do/don't like. It seems a little weird to me.

I personally wouldn’t be willing to compromise on any of those things in a longterm relationship

You are likely to be very disappointed then; and unless you find someone willing to totally subject themselves to your wants and needs, lonely to boot.

In terms of the sexual compatibility issue - yeah, I find the idea that if your tastes aren't matched you aren't compatible really depressing.

The above is important for many people though, just as agreeing on finances, children etc is also really important for many couples. Both people have to be happy/comfortable with decisions that effect both people in the relationship.

Personally for me I need someone who eventually wants to live with and marry their partner, not be in debt (apart from mortgage etc), have similar ideas about sex, be monogamous, be able to cope with a child being on the scene, and on top of that the obvious things, kind, considerate etc. I personally wouldn’t be willing to compromise on any of those things in a longterm relationship.

Anyone in a relationship should be able to safely and confidently say exactly what they do and don’t want to do. Anyone in a relationship should also stop their partner feeling as though they need to do something they aren’t really keen on doing.

I really don’t get the whole doing something sexually you aren’t keen on. My ex didn’t like the idea of sex so we didn’t have sex, I thought I would be fine without, turns out I was wrong. But if he had changed his mind I wouldn’t have started to have sex with him as I know he would be attempting to please me, rather than actually wanting to do it. How can anyone enjoy doing something that they know their partner doesn’t really want to do and doesn’t really enjoy doing?

QuentinWinters

I'm not sure what's difficult to understand really.

No one should be pressured into doing something they don't want to do. So, the person who wants to do the thing then gas a decision to make. Can they continue in the relationship knowing that they can't do this thing? If they can happily live without it, then fine. If they can't, then the only answer is to leave isn't it? They can stay and constantly badger their partner until they get them to do what they want.

Why does it matter how many other people do or don't want to do whatever it is?

What does this even mean, though?

To be enthusiastically involved, one is actively participating in the sex act because one wishes to do so of one's own volition.

Can't people decide whether they are happy to be involved without meeting some person's definition of enthusiasm?

My partner can decide that he/she is happy to be involved, but I won't accept anything other than continued active participation as evidence that he/she is happy to be involved.

I suffer dissociative episodes related to PTSD and have had partners who are similarly afflicted. I've dissociated mid-sex, started clamping down with vaginismus which fucking hurts and had my (unmissed now ex) bf carry on "because I didn't say stop". I couldn't say stop, I'd dissociated and he knew that this could happen and he didn't stop and check when I stopped responding and went suddenly tight which he was probably taking advantage of for his pleasure at my expense. My standard of consent is this high because people get physically and emotionally hurt if it isn't.

Can people do this without totally killing the mood?

Yes, by having the conversation over coffee outside the bedroom.

People should only have sex with partners who are enthusiastically involved.

What does this even mean, though? It seems like just another expectation to me. Can't people decide whether they are happy to be involved without meeting some person's definition of enthusiasm?

If one person wants to do something in the bedroom, and the other person doesn’t, then they are not sexually compatible. He shouldn’t pressure her. He should just leave her so they can both find someone they are compatible with.

This is sort of ok but assumes that similar proportions of men/women enjoy the same stuff and I dont think that's true.
The thread has talked a lot about anal but I think maybe fetishes become more relevant here.

So for example, lots of men like their partner to wear lingerie, it turns them on. Do their partners get turned on by wearing it or do they wear it because their man likes it? Probably both but I think more women in the latter category.

What about more extreme fetishes? Should a man who e.g. gets very aroused by wearing tights leave his wife if she doesn't want sex with him in said tights? Should the wife grin and bear it because she loves her husband and want to make him happy?

I agree with op its complicated and I tend to think men are the ones with the more extreme desires, but we have to pretend that's not the case and just as many women have fetishes. Although I couldn't name a single woman I know with a foot fetish, yet I know several men with it

As far as negotiation, in a long term relationship things change so much over time. How would you even know what might be on the table, or off it, in 20 years?

I think part of the problem with this is the idea that it's up to every couple to decide on together without the pressure of expectations. That sounds nice and you tend to think, well, it's private activities so why should social trends have any bearing?

But realistically I don't think it works that way. Even with sex, our basic expectations are set to some extent by what is culturally normative. In one society everything but the missionary position is considered taboo and some people don't even know anything else exists, in another if you aren't willing to give oral sex it might be seen as odd and selfish, in another maybe no one has ever heard of kissing. Anyone who seems to go outside of those expectations much is likely to find a sort of mismatch with what people expect and consider basic.

It's one of those situations like we discussed in the euthanasia thread, where changing social norms has effects on other people whether they like it or not, so maybe we have to think carefully about what gets considered normative.

Totally irrelevant but the heading made me sing:

Let's talk about sex baby,
Let's talk about you and me
Let's talk about all the good things and the bad things that made me
Let's talk aboooout sex
Let's talk about sex

But I do believe in my heart of hearts that women know they have to like sex stuff unquestioningly.

Where does this come from? I find it so depressing that anyone would think like this. People have different likes and dislikes. People should only have sex with partners who are enthusiastically involved. No-one should be pretending.

I've never watched porn, DH has never asked for anal sex, ever.
I've suggested it a few times and we've done it and enjoyed it.
Wouldn't say I love it, but from time to time, maybe once every two years I feel like it.

What’s the point in asking 16-18 year olds?!

I find it interesting that if a woman says she likes anal, the assumption is that she enjoys receiving. If a man says it, it’s assumed he’s talking about “giving” it. That’s despite biology arguing that if anything it should be the other way around, seeing as men get pleasure from prostate stimulation. So why do we assume the above? Because of porn and society telling us what our places are, so I don’t see how anyone can argue that there isn’t pressure on women to be ok with being buggered!

I was pressured in to this when 17 and bloody hated it and found it both painful and humiliating. I did it to please my (abusive I now realise) boyfriend at the time. I did not want to be seen as 'boring' and thought he might go elsewhere.

He did anyway and it was no loss.

130 men and women aged 16–18 from diverse social backgrounds.

In fact they were 16 - 18 year olds so even less representative than I first thought.

So yes ereshkigal, I do have a problem with their methodology.

See the link. And then if you like you can let the researchers know if you have any concerns about their study's methodology.

I have. They interviewed 130 people. That's not representative when you consider the UK population is it?

I don't like anal, I've done it quite a few times but have concluded that it's not for me.

I have also pretended to like things when having sex, that I haven't actually liked. I don't do that anymore, I'm vocal about what I do and don't like.

What part of "a third like it, a third are indifferent and a third find it painful" are you struggling with that you interpret this as "all"? Just wondering whether we need to help you out with basic English comprehension skills or basic maths here.

Sigh. In an ideal world (or in a world ideal enough that people could deal reasonably with issues that aren't ideal) every couple would negotiate the details of sex before they laid a finger on each other. And they might say "This is wonderful, we agree on everything!" or "We've got some problems, but we can make it work" or "We're just too far apart. Goodbye and good luck."

Yes, I'm imagining a comedy skit about a very correct couple who discuss their future relationship to the point where they fall asleep before doing anything. Can people do this without totally killing the mood?

I love anal sex, as do my friends who have tried it. It's suggested by us or our partners, no pressure, both parties enjoy it. I find it depressing when some women assume ALL women must not like something because they don't..