Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

Do you think modest fashion makes an attempt to criticise patriarchy, or does it go along with it by telling women they are responsible for male behaviour towards them?

No and no.
No, Not every woman picks her clothes to make a political statement so I do not agree that for fashion to be feminist it must attempt to criticise patriarchy. It need only be desired by women and be oriented to the female gaze instead of male gaze.
No, it does not go along with telling women they are responsible for the behaviour of men because that myth is dead and gone.

Plan Ok, I've found it, here's what I said:
Yes, men also sexually attack women who are dressed 'modestly' (believe it or not, many of us here know that too well as it has happened to us ourselves), which shows that the whole idea of 'modest' dressing doesn't actually afford any protection from violent men at all, and in fact only reinforces the false virgin/whore narrative.
Please, for the love of God, HOW did you arrive at
You were taking the view that modest clothing perpetuates the myth that women dressing modestly protects them from men’s sexual violence/uncontrollable urges.
When I was arguing the EXACT OPPOSITE, and then you presented my argument as yours. I don't mean to be rude if English is your second language, but I mean C'MON.

You were taking the view that modest clothing perpetuates the myth that women dressing modestly protects them from men’s sexual violence/uncontrollable urges. WHHHHHHAAAAAAAAATTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Plan So now that I've cleared that up , can I ask you a question to follow up? Do you think modest fashion makes an attempt to criticise patriarchy, or does it go along with it by telling women they are responsible for male behaviour towards them?

17 pages! Wow kinda assumed this would die a death. Glad it’s got people talking.

It certainly did that, this thread really escalated lol.

You think the misogynist pro oppression of women side and the Feminist opposition to oppressing women deserve equal time on the Feminist board? Criminy!

Well said, Creepster

repeating my argument back to me as though it was her own when I said modest clothing doesn't protect anyone from rape.

I expanded on your argument if you’d like to read it again. You were taking the view that modest clothing perpetuates the myth that women dressing modestly protects them from men’s sexual violence/uncontrollable urges. My argument was that no, it does not perpetuate the myth because no one believes in that myth anymore. For a myth to be perpetuated, it must be believed. I mentioned the what were you wearing exhibit that was the final nail in the coffin of the myth.

Plan I was talking specifically about the 'kinderwhore' style which WAS born from the feminist Riot Grrrl movement.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderwhore
Not my definition of feminism, an explanation of the history of the style of dress and where it came from. I also said I have no interest in defending it, but you've chosen not to quote that bit. I also stand by my statement that the difference between kinderwhore fashion and modest fashion is that one critically engages with patriarchy (whether it fails or not is another matter) whereas modest fashion embraces oppression.

Upfield I know

But it seems you and others still object to women dressing in the style itself.

Will nobody rid me of this troublesome STRAW MAN?!

NO WE DON’T OBJECT TO WOMEN DRESSING IN THIS STYLE AT ALL

WE OBJECT TO THE BRANDING AS “MODEST” AND THE PROMOTION OF “MODESTY” AS A DESIRABLE ATTRIBUTE FOR WOMEN

That is what is profoundly anti-feminist.

Sacré bleu.

Upfield,
You did in fact set up that binary in regards to modest=antifeminist and immodest(whore)= feminist with your comments:

Modest' fashion doesn't even attempt to criticise patriarchal hypocrisy, if it did there would be some similar form of satirical or ironic wearing of 'modest' garments involved. There isn't. It's a movement born from sexist, patriarchal, religious ideas about women, embraced by woke, virtue-signalling dipshits.

In any case, at least dressing as a 'whore' was making an attempt to challenge the patriarchal rules set up by men and throw it back in their faces. The term 'modest' positively embraces patriarchy.

TalkingintheDark She did the same thing to me, repeating my argument back to me as though it was her own when I said modest clothing doesn't protect anyone from rape.

Sooo what is it that bugs me?
Probably the madonna/whore paradigm on offer in women's fashion is what is bothering you.
It's been bugging me for seventy years.

"Yes, all that about choices being limited fall under the category of “women choosing”"

Eh, no it doesn't. It falls under the category of men choosing women's choices e.g. giving us the "choice" between dressing modestly or (in their terms) like a sl*t.

I also noted that women's choices are often non-existent. Women in fundamentalist religions are often fully controlled by men. Again, men making the choices.

You don't understand feminism or what it's for.

No. She's just not agreeing with you, and you seem to be unable to accept that others are entitled to a different opinion.
No. I repeat, nowhere on here have I said immodest=feminist, nor have I objected to modest clothing itself, which has been a repeated straw man she keeps dragging out. Stop trying to appeal to my female socialisation to shut me up.

Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women.
Feminism 101 has nothing to do with telling women they must choose the style of their oppression.

And i presume plan was using your name.
I was.

We went through this in the eighties. The designers decided to go from mid calf and clean lines to mini skirt and lace in one season. The buyers were tearing their hair out because the style was so limiting and some of their best sellers, women's business suits and separates, were no longer on offer.
Teens bought the frills and minis and adult women did not.
There is a tiny bit more variety on offer these days, but not much.

you keep doing it and not engaging with the points that are being made.

No. She's just not agreeing with you, and you seem to be unable to accept that others are entitled to a different opinion.

...and I have nowhere on here said immodest=feminist that is your own projection, you keep doing it and not engaging with the points that are being made.

Dreich,
Yes, all that about choices being limited fall under the category of “women choosing”

“Feminism 101” is a meaningless response. After all, feminism 101 states that feminism is about women choosing and yet you call myself and others misogynist oppressors because we have no objection to some women choosing to dress in clothing currently labelled as “modest”. The clothing in question is actually a fusion of nonWestern and Western styles, cuts and embellishments. I understand the label of “modest” is offensive to some...fine,,that is gone, fini. But it seems you and others still object to women dressing in the style itself. Are you worried western women will “go native”? That is a very colonial attitude to have and not very feminist.

Well said. I never knew I'd get called a misogynistic handmaiden of the patriarchy for explaining the origins of a fashion style on a feminist board but there's a first time for everything

an please do not call me a creep.
It is rude and offensive and a violation of the special FWR talk guidelines

Shame noone told shona that. She's called me creepy over and over again.

And i presume plan was using your name.