Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

I even mentioned the exhibit pages ago on this thread too,

You missed “debunk rape myth”
That exhibit was years ago and helped kill the myth.

Your link doesn’t undermine that one bit anymore than me posting a picture of a dodo with an old headline “last Dodo on display at British museum” undermines their extinction.

You are not either though Dreich because flinging Iran which is a theocratic dictatorship into a conversation about a western democratic fashion trend is a very large and very red herring.

I googled "My Little Pony t-shirt rape trial" and the only thing that came up with was this: an exhibition of clothes women were wearing when a man raped them:

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/rape-victims-clothes-displayed-brussels-belgium-debunk-victim-blaming-myth-a8152481.html

"As rape and sexual assault victims grapple with life post-trauma, one of the loaded questions that is sometimes asked is, “What were you wearing?”

The unstated but troubling implication is that if the clothes worn were provocative enough, then that may affect the level of sympathy offered.

But, as an exhibit in Belgium proves, the question is useless, and harmful, in determining a motive for rape.

Called, “What were you wearing?” the exhibit at the Centre Communautaire Maritime in Brussels features replicated clothing items similar to those worn by real victims of sexual assault, and attempts to disprove the myth that provocative clothing incites rape.

Replicated from descriptions of clothing worn the night survivors were attacked, the exhibit proves that clothing never justifies or incites rape.

Featuring items such as pyjamas, tracksuits, even a child’s My Little Pony shirt, the exhibit shows clothing as innocent as the victims themselves.

The organisation behind the exhibit, the prevention service of Molenbeek, opened the exhibit to "create a tangible response to one of our most pervasive rape culture myths" because "The belief that clothing or what someone what wearing 'causes' rape is extremely damaging for survivors.""

Weird how you would mention something that completely undermines your argument.

Isn’t ‘big slag’ slang for a sexually immodest woman?

Someone could say the following: I strive to be a modest person. I consider modest to refer to behaviour in which one has respect for one’s own body and sexuality as well as the body and sexuality of others. I only conduct myself in a sexual manner with a person who I share a mutual consent and respect with. I don’t sexually objectify other people or myself. I wear clothing that is appropriate to the activities I am participating in, so I wear form fitting clothes during cycling but do not sexualise myself by doing so. I am aware that my feelings about clothing are specific to me.

That would be steel manning the concept of modesty, rather than straw manning it.

But as soon as somebody starts referring to a whole look as modest and throwing it around as a shared experience of modesty which can be tagged, they are pretty much saying that women who wear a short skirt are sexually immodest (big slags).

On the Feminist board we try to apply Feminist analysis.
This is difficult when people waste our time with these personal attacks claiming we are intolerant of women.
If you cannot separate the analysis of the effects of social customs and mores from criticism of women who comply with social customs and mores you are well and truly conditioned.

"Women in Iran deserve nice clothes too. Stopping all modest fashion production and sales gives them less choice, not more."

Wow, I post about how Iranian men are jailing and torturing Iranian women if they refuse to submit to men's clothing choices for them and your response is that Iranian women deserve nice clothes in their prison.

I don't believe you're serious any more.

Actually the judgement on this thread comes from people who call some ordinary clothing "modest" because there is a clear implication that other clothing is "immodest".

I've even looked at my tight jeans that I'm wearing tonight and thought that they would be judged "immodest" by the lights of this thread. I have never had a thought like that in my life, either about my clothes or anyone else's. Modesty and immodesty are stupid, retrograde and insultingly sexist judgements of the clothes women wear.

Women in Iran deserve nice clothes too. Stopping all modest fashion production and sales gives them less choice, not more.

So what do you propose we all do? What clothes shall we wear to meet your approval? What clothes should Muslim and orthodox Jewish women wear so they don't get accused of being handmaidens of the patriarchy?
Meet my approval?! Where have I said other women's clothing has to meet my approval?! My only concern is that women shouldn't have to dress to meet male approval. This is a critique of male oppression, not women.
Women should wear what they like and not be judged. So stop judging us.
Correct me if you feel I'm mistaken, but it's the male enforced oppressive ideology of 'modesty' that's being judged, not women.

Dreich drizzle....an a my little pony t shirt was shown at another rape trial. The point is not that people do not judge us for what we wear but that no matter what you wear thong or my little pony T-shirt you will be judged and it will be shown at a rape trial. I say again, the myth that dressing a certain way can reduce risk or avoid rape is dead and gone. That is not the same thing as being judged for what you wear. As is plainly evident on this thread.

"is your intolerance of women who wish to wear the hijab any better?"

Am I better than men who torture and jail women who don't dress the way they want them to? What do you think?

Did you read my link about Iran zsazsajuju? It's literally a few posts up.

Men are torturing and jailing women who refuse to dress the way they want them to.

@Dreichdrizzle - which men? Sounds more like women on this thread who have an issue with women wearing hijabs/ orthodox jewish clothing

@dreichdrizzle - is your intolerance of women who wish to wear the hijab any better? Women should wear what they like and not be judged. So stop judging us.

No one is saying women should wear one thing or another

Men are. Men are saying exactly that.

Nuns who I used to serve in a shop on Oxford street, Orthodox Jewish women who I see in Islington with wigs, Elderly white women with headscarves whom I used to see aplenty growing up in the 1980's.....are all these people "oppressed" too?
Yes, all women are. I'm pretty sure most women on this thread give a feminist critique to Western culture and styles of dress too.

The pro-modesty brigade on this thread need to think about how men literally police women's clothing in places like Iran, employing a morality police force to enforce the hijab:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/06/07/iran-introduces-2000-new-morality-police-units-response-womens/

Women began taking to the streets last year, silently waving their headscarves on the ends of sticks. In response, they suffered a backlash from the authorities, facing violent assault, arrest and torture, and some were jailed after what human rights groups called unfair trials.

Tortured and jailed for refusing to dress the way men want them.

The apolitical blandness about this is really galling.

No one is saying women should wear one thing or another or that women are big slags just because they have a short skirt on. In my religion we have the concept of modesty (that’s what we call it). Some women dress like that all the time but most just dress like that for religious occasions/life cycle events, etc. The rest of the time we dress in office wear/fitness gear/jammies/party clothes/whatever

I don’t dress like a religious woman but I have no problem with those who do. And for the most part they have no issues with me (nor should they). So tolerance and mutual respect is the way forward imo

choices aren't made in a vaccuum, we live with the history and reality of female oppression, and deliberately choosing clothes for the sake of 'modesty' is taking the position that women are responsible for male sexual violence.

So what do you propose we all do? What clothes shall we wear to meet your approval? What clothes should Muslim and orthodox Jewish women wear so they don't get accused of being handmaidens of the patriarchy?

No, Not every woman picks her clothes to make a political statement so I do not agree that for fashion to be feminist it must attempt to criticise patriarchy. I actually agree with that, but choices aren't made in a vaccuum, we live with the history and reality of female oppression, and deliberately choosing clothes for the sake of 'modesty' is taking the position that women are responsible for male sexual violence.

No, it does not go along with telling women they are responsible for the behaviour of men because that myth is dead and gone.
But...it's modest clothing, the clue is in the name, that's exactly what it does.

No, it does not go along with telling women they are responsible for the behaviour of men because that myth is dead and gone.

Completely untrue. Here's a demonstration of its use that happened in a rape trial:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46207304

"A series of protests over sexual consent have been taking place in Ireland, a week after a man was acquitted of raping a 17-year-old.

In the trial, the defence lawyer told the jury: "You have to look at the way she was dressed. She was wearing a thong with a lace front.""

The defence barrister held up the victim's underwear for the jury to judge.

@30to50FeralHogs erm no I love wearing my hijab as did many at my top 2 uni. Isn't it funny how many think a piece of cloth on your head wipes away your brain cells . As a Muslim, the only "oppresive" treatment I've experienced in terms of what I wear are people like you, do you not see how ironic this is?

Nuns who I used to serve in a shop on Oxford street, Orthodox Jewish women who I see in Islington with wigs, Elderly white women with headscarves whom I used to see aplenty growing up in the 1980's.....are all these people "oppressed" too? Or are you just vexed that they are following a style other than one in a fashion magazine? 🙄

WE OBJECT TO THE BRANDING AS “MODEST” AND THE PROMOTION OF “MODESTY” AS A DESIRABLE ATTRIBUTE FOR WOMEN

I'm pretty sure almost everyone on this thread has said they don't like the name 'modest' in terms of fashion. None of us are saying women should be forced to wear this clothing, and most agree that the word modest isn't good because it implies the opposite is immodest, so, what's the problem? You say you don't have a problem with women wearing this style of dress, but your posts repeatedly come across as if you do. Absolutely nobody here is on the 'misogynist pro oppression side of the argument.' People are just pointing out that this clothing exists, it's called modest fashion (none of us here named it that), and it exists because Muslim and other religious women need it in order to conform to their religions, plus some women actually like wearing this type of clothing because they feel comfortable in it.

Are you wanting to 'liberate' all Muslim women from Islam or something?

Enough of all of the accusations of handmaidenry and misogyny, it's ridiculous!

Via
“and in fact only reinforces the false virgin/whore narrative”

Is not reinforce a synonym for perpetuate? Is not the virgin/whore narrative reference to women men put on a pedestal (the virgin) and the ones men can rape with impunity (the whores). I was also clear that you were associating modest with virgin in your critique, not whores.